4 ms·

I respect your opinion and maybe you’re in a unique position that makes Python 3 really awful to you, but in general your comment seems more like a knee-jerk "l

by hynek 14y ago

I respect your opinion and maybe you’re in a unique position that makes Python 3 really awful to you, but in general your comment seems more like a knee-jerk "lolpython3" reaction that was appropriate while 3.0 & 3.1. But now, that situation changed. Many, many high profile projects are already on Python and many will follow, now porting has been made even easier. Django tries to support Python 3 with 1.5, Pyramid already does support it, Twisted has a GSoC student that tries to bring it to Py3… And funnily enough, “normal” code that doesn’t screw around too much with advanced features is rather trivial to port. I have written a Python 3.2 program myself only to find out later that it also works on Python 2.7 without changes. :) With every bigger change you lose some – and I’m sorry if it’s inevitably you – but you also win some. Because all in all, Python 3 is great.

sho_hn 14y ago
There's a bunch of developments that make me feel that the Python 3 ball has started rolling in a much more significant way lately. Some you've already mentioned; another is Canonical insisting on everything in the "main" section of Ubuntu running on Python 3 by 2014, and doing some of the work to make that happen.
- briancurtin 14y ago
  > another is Canonical insisting on everything in the "main" section of Ubuntu running on Python 3 by 2014, and doing some of the work to make that happen. Everything on the install CD is planned to be Python 3 by this fall. I'm already working to port what's necessary for Ubuntu One.
takluyver 14y ago
I've noticed that the top 3 most requested packages to port now all have Python 3 coming in a release soon. (Django, matplotlib and wxPython - from the poll on the python.org homepage)
saurik 14y ago
I take severe issue with your characterization of my comment as both a unique and knee-jerk opinion. I will even go so far as to say that your comment is needlessly patronizing, and thereby horribly insulting. In my comments, I describe a specific phenomena that are leading to the problems that I experience: that there is now a fractured community of libraries for what are really two unrelated languages. As some even-more-specific actual-examples: 1) key libraries such as PIL are not ported, despite your claims regarding the ease 2) of those that are, such as psycopg2, there are often awkward (and I will often claim "broken") semantic changes to the behavior of the API 3) not all libraries actually have maintainers to port the code at all (such as the iPhone PNG transcoder I rely on) 4) finally, there are libraries, even entire frameworks (mod_python), that rely on functionality that is actively being removed with prejudice (in the case of mod_python, for reasons I continue to not understand, despite having read copious e-mail exchanges on the Python mailing list regarding the issues) (A quick aside, for anyone about to pull a "lol mod_python" on me: mod_python is fundamentally more powerful than the various replacements, something even the primary maintainer of mod_wsgi admits; there is a reason why, despite it having been retired from Apache due to a lack of maintainer, it was still used by Google engineers as the basis of their pywebsocket implementation.) I will therefore challenge you to put up something behind your insults, and explain what you feel has changed, and how it affects the argument I have made. While it is of academic interest that a few web frameworks now support Python 3, real programs, even real websites, are going to rely on libraries to accomplish their underlying goals. I will even further challenge you to defend your accusation that my experience is "unique"; I personally find this idea incredible, given that I ask every Python programmer I meet "2 or 3", and not a single person has ever said "3". Yes: if you call out Python 3 in public on a Python 3 release post, a number of people will come out of the woodwork, but in a random sample under more realistic conditions (non-Python developer conferences) the reality seems closer to 0%.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
saurik 14y ago
I take severe issue with your characterization of my comment as both a unique and knee-jerk opinion. I will even go so far as to say that your comment is needlessly patronizing, and thereby horribly insulting. In my comments, I describe a specific phenomena that are leading to the problems that I experience: that there is now a fractured community of libraries for what are really two unrelated languages. As some even-more-specific actual-examples: 1) key libraries such as PIL are not ported, despite your claims regarding the ease 2) of those that are, such as psycopg2, there are often awkward (and I will often claim "broken") semantic changes to the behavior of the API 3) not all libraries actually have maintainers to port the code at all (such as the iPhone PNG transcoder I rely on) 4) finally, there are libraries, even entire frameworks (mod_python), that rely on functionality that is actively being removed with prejudice (in the case of mod_python, for reasons I continue to not understand, despite having read copious e-mail exchanges on the Python mailing list regarding the issues) (A quick aside, for anyone about to pull a "lol mod_python" on me: mod_python is fundamentally more powerful than the various replacements, something even the primary maintainer of mod_wsgi admits; there is a reason why, despite it having been retired from Apache due to a lack of maintainer, it was still used by Google engineers as the basis of their pywebsocket implementation.) I will therefore challenge you to put up something behind your insults, and explain what you feel has changed, and how it affects the argument I have made. While it is of academic interest that a few web frameworks now support Python 3, real programs, even real websites, are going to rely on libraries to accomplish their underlying goals. I will even further challenge you to defend your accusation that my experience is "unique"; I personally find this idea incredible, given that I ask every Python programmer I meet "2 or 3", and not a single person has ever said "3". Yes: if you call out Python 3 in public on a Python 3 release post, a number of people will come out of the woodwork, but in a more random sample under more realistic conditions (non-Python developer conferences) the reality seems closer to 0%. Hell, even the comments I've made on this thread have been upvoted quite a bit (+22 on my root argument).

by hynek 14y ago

sho_hn 14y ago

There's a bunch of developments that make me feel that the Python 3 ball has started rolling in a much more significant way lately. Some you've already mentioned; another is Canonical insisting on everything in the "main" section of Ubuntu running on Python 3 by 2014, and doing some of the work to make that happen.

briancurtin 14y ago
> another is Canonical insisting on everything in the "main" section of Ubuntu running on Python 3 by 2014, and doing some of the work to make that happen. Everything on the install CD is planned to be Python 3 by this fall. I'm already working to port what's necessary for Ubuntu One.

takluyver 14y ago

I've noticed that the top 3 most requested packages to port now all have Python 3 coming in a release soon. (Django, matplotlib and wxPython - from the poll on the python.org homepage)

saurik 14y ago

I take severe issue with your characterization of my comment as both a unique and knee-jerk opinion. I will even go so far as to say that your comment is needlessly patronizing, and thereby horribly insulting. In my comments, I describe a specific phenomena that are leading to the problems that I experience: that there is now a fractured community of libraries for what are really two unrelated languages. As some even-more-specific actual-examples: 1) key libraries such as PIL are not ported, despite your claims regarding the ease 2) of those that are, such as psycopg2, there are often awkward (and I will often claim "broken") semantic changes to the behavior of the API 3) not all libraries actually have maintainers to port the code at all (such as the iPhone PNG transcoder I rely on) 4) finally, there are libraries, even entire frameworks (mod_python), that rely on functionality that is actively being removed with prejudice (in the case of mod_python, for reasons I continue to not understand, despite having read copious e-mail exchanges on the Python mailing list regarding the issues) (A quick aside, for anyone about to pull a "lol mod_python" on me: mod_python is fundamentally more powerful than the various replacements, something even the primary maintainer of mod_wsgi admits; there is a reason why, despite it having been retired from Apache due to a lack of maintainer, it was still used by Google engineers as the basis of their pywebsocket implementation.) I will therefore challenge you to put up something behind your insults, and explain what you feel has changed, and how it affects the argument I have made. While it is of academic interest that a few web frameworks now support Python 3, real programs, even real websites, are going to rely on libraries to accomplish their underlying goals. I will even further challenge you to defend your accusation that my experience is "unique"; I personally find this idea incredible, given that I ask every Python programmer I meet "2 or 3", and not a single person has ever said "3". Yes: if you call out Python 3 in public on a Python 3 release post, a number of people will come out of the woodwork, but in a random sample under more realistic conditions (non-Python developer conferences) the reality seems closer to 0%.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

saurik 14y ago

I take severe issue with your characterization of my comment as both a unique and knee-jerk opinion. I will even go so far as to say that your comment is needlessly patronizing, and thereby horribly insulting. In my comments, I describe a specific phenomena that are leading to the problems that I experience: that there is now a fractured community of libraries for what are really two unrelated languages. As some even-more-specific actual-examples: 1) key libraries such as PIL are not ported, despite your claims regarding the ease 2) of those that are, such as psycopg2, there are often awkward (and I will often claim "broken") semantic changes to the behavior of the API 3) not all libraries actually have maintainers to port the code at all (such as the iPhone PNG transcoder I rely on) 4) finally, there are libraries, even entire frameworks (mod_python), that rely on functionality that is actively being removed with prejudice (in the case of mod_python, for reasons I continue to not understand, despite having read copious e-mail exchanges on the Python mailing list regarding the issues) (A quick aside, for anyone about to pull a "lol mod_python" on me: mod_python is fundamentally more powerful than the various replacements, something even the primary maintainer of mod_wsgi admits; there is a reason why, despite it having been retired from Apache due to a lack of maintainer, it was still used by Google engineers as the basis of their pywebsocket implementation.) I will therefore challenge you to put up something behind your insults, and explain what you feel has changed, and how it affects the argument I have made. While it is of academic interest that a few web frameworks now support Python 3, real programs, even real websites, are going to rely on libraries to accomplish their underlying goals. I will even further challenge you to defend your accusation that my experience is "unique"; I personally find this idea incredible, given that I ask every Python programmer I meet "2 or 3", and not a single person has ever said "3". Yes: if you call out Python 3 in public on a Python 3 release post, a number of people will come out of the woodwork, but in a more random sample under more realistic conditions (non-Python developer conferences) the reality seems closer to 0%. Hell, even the comments I've made on this thread have been upvoted quite a bit (+22 on my root argument).