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That was created with the intention of being integrated into a very large C++ codebase. I do agree that they could do more. I find it kind of wild that they ha

That was created with the intention of being integrated into a very large C++ codebase. I do agree that they could do more. I find it kind of wild that they haven’t copied Zig’s cross compilation story for example. But this stuff being just fine instead of world class is more of a lack of vision and direction than a hostility towards the idea. Indifference is not malice. Also, you seem to be ignoring the crabi work, which is still not a thing, of course, but certainly isn’t “actively hostile towards non-c ABIs”.

samatman 2y ago
I think they had to get over the knee-jerk reaction that Zig was a, quote, "massive step back for the industry", frowny face. It seems they have, which is all to the good: the work to make custom allocators practical in Rust is another example. Rust still doesn't have anything like `std.testing.checkAllAllocationFailures`, but I expect that it will at some future point. Zig certainly learned a lot from Rust, and it's good that Rust is able to do the same. Zig is not, and will not be, a memory-safe language. But the sum of the decisions which go into the language make it categorically different from C (the language is so different from C++ as to make comparisons basically irrelevant). Memory safety is a spectrum, not a binary, or there wouldn't be "Rust" and "safe Rust". What Rust has done is innovative, even revolutionary, but I believe this also applies to Zig in its own way. I view them as representing complementary approaches to the true goal, which is correct software with optimal performance.
- steveklabnik 2y ago
  While Patrick played a critical role in Rust's history, he said that years after he stopped working on Rust. I haven't seen people still involved share strong opinions about Zig in either direction, to be honest. I've known Andrew for a long time, and am a big fan of languages learning from each other. I have always found that the community of people working on languages is overall much more collegial to each other than their respective communities can be to each other, as a general rule. Obviously there are exceptions.
dadrian 2y ago
I'll admit hostile was perhaps too harsh, however looking back to the late 2010s, it seems clear that the attitude was: - C ABI is good enough for any compatibility - "Rewrite it Rust" / RESF - Prioritize language proposals, not fundamentals I think the attitude as changed somewhat in the last 2-3 years, with more interest in cxx and crubit and crabi, although many of those things are at least partially blocked on stalled language proposals, and largely ignored by the "core" Rust community. I would say indifference and posturing does approach hostility. There's also consistent conflation of "compatibility with C++" and "rich compatibility with all of C++". Swift is a great example of how targeting PODs and std::vector and aligning concurrency expectations gets you extremely far, especially if you limit yourself to just LLVM. btw, I really appreciate your Rust book.
- steveklabnik 2y ago
  Thanks for the kind words about the book! I think indifference is very different than hostility. That there's only limited time, resources, and interest and those must be balanced and that means some projects advance before others is a very different thing than a refusal to do something.

samatman 2y ago

I think they had to get over the knee-jerk reaction that Zig was a, quote, "massive step back for the industry", frowny face. It seems they have, which is all to the good: the work to make custom allocators practical in Rust is another example. Rust still doesn't have anything like `std.testing.checkAllAllocationFailures`, but I expect that it will at some future point. Zig certainly learned a lot from Rust, and it's good that Rust is able to do the same. Zig is not, and will not be, a memory-safe language. But the sum of the decisions which go into the language make it categorically different from C (the language is so different from C++ as to make comparisons basically irrelevant). Memory safety is a spectrum, not a binary, or there wouldn't be "Rust" and "safe Rust". What Rust has done is innovative, even revolutionary, but I believe this also applies to Zig in its own way. I view them as representing complementary approaches to the true goal, which is correct software with optimal performance.

steveklabnik 2y ago
While Patrick played a critical role in Rust's history, he said that years after he stopped working on Rust. I haven't seen people still involved share strong opinions about Zig in either direction, to be honest. I've known Andrew for a long time, and am a big fan of languages learning from each other. I have always found that the community of people working on languages is overall much more collegial to each other than their respective communities can be to each other, as a general rule. Obviously there are exceptions.

dadrian 2y ago

I'll admit hostile was perhaps too harsh, however looking back to the late 2010s, it seems clear that the attitude was: - C ABI is good enough for any compatibility - "Rewrite it Rust" / RESF - Prioritize language proposals, not fundamentals I think the attitude as changed somewhat in the last 2-3 years, with more interest in cxx and crubit and crabi, although many of those things are at least partially blocked on stalled language proposals, and largely ignored by the "core" Rust community. I would say indifference and posturing does approach hostility. There's also consistent conflation of "compatibility with C++" and "rich compatibility with all of C++". Swift is a great example of how targeting PODs and std::vector and aligning concurrency expectations gets you extremely far, especially if you limit yourself to just LLVM. btw, I really appreciate your Rust book.

steveklabnik 2y ago
Thanks for the kind words about the book! I think indifference is very different than hostility. That there's only limited time, resources, and interest and those must be balanced and that means some projects advance before others is a very different thing than a refusal to do something.