3 ms·

How much of a leap is it to say that octopuses have effectively domesticated fish, the way early humans might have turned docile wolves into hunting companions?

throwup238 2y ago
It depends on your definition of domestication. One could easily argue that ants have domesticated aphids so I don’t think the concept depends on the intelligence of the domesticator so much as the symbiotic relationship between species. However the usual definition of domestication is specific to humans. The aforementioned aphid farming and the octopodes in TFA are technically in mutualistic relationships.
- setgree 2y ago
  I don't think there is scholarly consensus on whether ant behavior can/should be considered domestication, but, per [0]: > The best-studied insect-associated domestication is that of the attine ants...and the majority cultivate parasol mushrooms in the Leucocoprineae [58]. The ants plant sessile fungal cultivars, manage growth conditions by regulating temperature and moisture and fertilizing the fungal gardens, protect their crop from other herbivores, parasites, and disease, and harvest the cultivated fungi for food [4,58]. This coevolved domestication system has turned ants into obligate fungivores, as experimental removal of the fungal crop results in reduced reproduction and increased mortality among ants [58]. For the fungi, the ants increase their fitness relative to the free-living state by increasing their proportion across generations, providing for geographic dispersal and protecting the fungi against parasites and pathogens [58]. In the higher attine ants, the fungal cultivars are obligate mutualists and cannot grow in a free-living state [58]. It should be noted that fungi may not be the only ant domesticates; some ants tend to hemipteran insects like aphids and treehoppers in a system reminiscent of human animal husbandry [4,10]. I would call this domestication, full stop. [0] https://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/fulltext/S0169-5347(22)00089-1?dgcid=raven_jbs_etoc_email https://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/fulltext/S0169...
Intralexical 2y ago
I think domestication implies multigenerational changes in genetics and morphology to make the domesticated species more useful for the domesticating species. It doesn't seem that there's any evidence of that yet. Maybe if they keep at it for a while, and either the fish they hunt with branch off into a separate population or they do it so much that it affects the entire population?

throwup238 2y ago

It depends on your definition of domestication. One could easily argue that ants have domesticated aphids so I don’t think the concept depends on the intelligence of the domesticator so much as the symbiotic relationship between species. However the usual definition of domestication is specific to humans. The aforementioned aphid farming and the octopodes in TFA are technically in mutualistic relationships.

setgree 2y ago
I don't think there is scholarly consensus on whether ant behavior can/should be considered domestication, but, per [0]: > The best-studied insect-associated domestication is that of the attine ants...and the majority cultivate parasol mushrooms in the Leucocoprineae [58]. The ants plant sessile fungal cultivars, manage growth conditions by regulating temperature and moisture and fertilizing the fungal gardens, protect their crop from other herbivores, parasites, and disease, and harvest the cultivated fungi for food [4,58]. This coevolved domestication system has turned ants into obligate fungivores, as experimental removal of the fungal crop results in reduced reproduction and increased mortality among ants [58]. For the fungi, the ants increase their fitness relative to the free-living state by increasing their proportion across generations, providing for geographic dispersal and protecting the fungi against parasites and pathogens [58]. In the higher attine ants, the fungal cultivars are obligate mutualists and cannot grow in a free-living state [58]. It should be noted that fungi may not be the only ant domesticates; some ants tend to hemipteran insects like aphids and treehoppers in a system reminiscent of human animal husbandry [4,10]. I would call this domestication, full stop. [0] https://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/fulltext/S0169-5347(22)00089-1?dgcid=raven_jbs_etoc_email https://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/fulltext/S0169...

Intralexical 2y ago

I think domestication implies multigenerational changes in genetics and morphology to make the domesticated species more useful for the domesticating species. It doesn't seem that there's any evidence of that yet. Maybe if they keep at it for a while, and either the fish they hunt with branch off into a separate population or they do it so much that it affects the entire population?