4 ms·

Consider the intelligence of pigs as well. Even if cows, sheep, deer, rabbits, chickens, turkeys, et al. all sit below the "I don't want to eat you" cutoff poin

Consider the intelligence of pigs as well. Even if cows, sheep, deer, rabbits, chickens, turkeys, et al. all sit below the "I don't want to eat you" cutoff point, pigs should probably be above it.

jdhzzz 2y ago
Not doing that is why future generations will loathe me and my generation.
- squigz 2y ago
  If you're referring to not choosing to eat meat, I sort of doubt future generations will 'loathe' you - just as I don't 'loathe' members of previous generations who did things we've since learned better about.
  - crooked-v 2y ago
    Yeah, generally when you see historical figures talked about like that it's people who were standout bad and criticized even in their own times, like Christopher Columbus.
dhosek 2y ago
I’ve been able to give up eating cephalopods, but pigs are too delicious to give up.
- ep103 2y ago
  I try to eat meat to minimize the formula of: cruelty_cow = IntModifier * Animal_Intelligence /(AmountOfProvidedMeat/Deaths) * FrequencyOfEatingThisAnimal Solve for: Min (cruelty_cow + cruelty_pig + cruelty_octopus + ...) Where AmountOfProvidedMeat > NeededMeatForHealthyDiet And Cost * AmountOfProvidedMeat < Food_Budget I've generally found that maximizing on Fish, Chicken, and Cow (in that order) seems to be the best bet. I tend not to touch veal, lamb, or octopus.
  - baggy_trough 2y ago
    A single walrus eats 4500 clams a day so let's hope they are low on pain awareness.
  - nerdponx 2y ago
    One thing to consider about veal is that it's an unavoidable byproduct of the dairy industry. Veal calves do not need to be mistreated to become veal, but the plain fact is that they are also not going to be kept alive either. A male cattle that is not a breeding bull has no economic value until its corpse is processed, barring entertainment uses like rodeo. If you refuse to eat even humane veal (free to roam and milk-fed), then IMO you should refuse dairy entirely. It might also be worth considering that the entire concept of humane dairy is questionable. It depends on separating mothers from calves, and either eating the latter or weaning them at far too young an age, or both. Cows are dumb, but they're not that dumb, and more importantly they are prey mammals with strong "familial" instincts. The process is fundamentally at least somewhat cruel.
  - Tijdreiziger 2y ago
    Modulo some planning and adjusting of recipes, meat is unnecessary for a healthy diet, and a vegan diet tends towards 0 cruelty.
    - rickydroll 2y ago
      It all depends on the definition of a healthy diet. I have type II diabetes, and I eat low-carb as much as reasonably possible. A friend with A-fib and gets the best results from the low-fat vegan diet. I have a friend whose partner accumulates iron in her blood, so she does best with a vegetarian diet. If you have kidney disease, you need a diet with specific types of protein and a bioavailability level that you can't entirely get from plants. The human body is an amazing thing that is simultaneously a fucking pain in the ass. There is no "one truth" for food.
rickydroll 2y ago
I decided on pigs as the smart threshold because they were as smart as my dogs, and I would never eat my dog. Mutton, lamb, or chicken is no problem whatsoever. You grab them by the neck, stare deep into their eyes, and you will see the back of their skull.
- GrantMoyer 2y ago
  I feel the same way about some people.
- spaceman_2020 2y ago
  My wife is grossed out if I eat anything other than chicken or fish. She says that cow, goat, and pig feel too "present" to eat. I begrudgingly agree.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 2y ago
    I mean they're all mammals, just like us. Intelligence is just one thing we can consider when deciding what's morally acceptable to kill and consume. Genetic proximity to humans clearly matters to many people as well: lots of people stick to seafood and/or poultry despite the fact that octopuses and some birds can be quite intelligent. Sociability could be a third factor. Pigs are smarter than dogs, cows are smarter than horses, but we choose not to eat dogs and horses because they more readily comprehend and obey our commands, enabling us to connect with them on a basic social level.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      >Intelligence is just one thing we can consider when deciding what's morally acceptable to kill and consume. Genetic proximity to humans clearly matters to many people as well: lots of people stick to seafood and/or poultry despite the fact that octopuses and some birds can be quite intelligent. Sure, but it's pretty obvious that fish and chicken are very stupid animals, and those mammals are much smarter, so I'm not sure that genetic proximity is as important as you think it is. Octopuses are the only real standout here: they really are quite intelligent, which is even more remarkable because they're invertebrates. And yes, some birds are quite intelligent (like crows), but we don't eat those types of birds (probably because they're just not very good as food). >cows are smarter than horses, but we choose not to eat dogs and horses because they more readily comprehend and obey our commands Who's "we"? Horsemeat is very easy to find in restaurants here in Japan. It's not bad if cooked properly, but it's a lot like deer meat. Deer are pretty stupid too (probably about as smart as cows), but they aren't normally eaten either, and it's because most people just don't like the taste that much (it's "gamey"), and it's difficult to cook. Cows taste better than horses because they have a lot more fat. Also, octopuses have been mentioned here many times, but in the US they aren't a terribly popular food item, whereas here in Japan they're very common (along with squid). So differing cultures and culinary traditions I think have a lot to do with it too, just as with horses above.

Consider the intelligence of pigs as well. Even if cows, sheep, deer, rabbits, chickens, turkeys, et al. all sit below the "I don't want to eat you" cutoff point, pigs should probably be above it.

jdhzzz 2y ago

Not doing that is why future generations will loathe me and my generation.

squigz 2y ago
If you're referring to not choosing to eat meat, I sort of doubt future generations will 'loathe' you - just as I don't 'loathe' members of previous generations who did things we've since learned better about.
- crooked-v 2y ago
  Yeah, generally when you see historical figures talked about like that it's people who were standout bad and criticized even in their own times, like Christopher Columbus.

dhosek 2y ago

I’ve been able to give up eating cephalopods, but pigs are too delicious to give up.

ep103 2y ago
I try to eat meat to minimize the formula of: cruelty_cow = IntModifier * Animal_Intelligence /(AmountOfProvidedMeat/Deaths) * FrequencyOfEatingThisAnimal Solve for: Min (cruelty_cow + cruelty_pig + cruelty_octopus + ...) Where AmountOfProvidedMeat > NeededMeatForHealthyDiet And Cost * AmountOfProvidedMeat < Food_Budget I've generally found that maximizing on Fish, Chicken, and Cow (in that order) seems to be the best bet. I tend not to touch veal, lamb, or octopus.
- baggy_trough 2y ago
  A single walrus eats 4500 clams a day so let's hope they are low on pain awareness.
- nerdponx 2y ago
  One thing to consider about veal is that it's an unavoidable byproduct of the dairy industry. Veal calves do not need to be mistreated to become veal, but the plain fact is that they are also not going to be kept alive either. A male cattle that is not a breeding bull has no economic value until its corpse is processed, barring entertainment uses like rodeo. If you refuse to eat even humane veal (free to roam and milk-fed), then IMO you should refuse dairy entirely. It might also be worth considering that the entire concept of humane dairy is questionable. It depends on separating mothers from calves, and either eating the latter or weaning them at far too young an age, or both. Cows are dumb, but they're not that dumb, and more importantly they are prey mammals with strong "familial" instincts. The process is fundamentally at least somewhat cruel.
- Tijdreiziger 2y ago
  Modulo some planning and adjusting of recipes, meat is unnecessary for a healthy diet, and a vegan diet tends towards 0 cruelty.
  - rickydroll 2y ago
    It all depends on the definition of a healthy diet. I have type II diabetes, and I eat low-carb as much as reasonably possible. A friend with A-fib and gets the best results from the low-fat vegan diet. I have a friend whose partner accumulates iron in her blood, so she does best with a vegetarian diet. If you have kidney disease, you need a diet with specific types of protein and a bioavailability level that you can't entirely get from plants. The human body is an amazing thing that is simultaneously a fucking pain in the ass. There is no "one truth" for food.

rickydroll 2y ago

I decided on pigs as the smart threshold because they were as smart as my dogs, and I would never eat my dog. Mutton, lamb, or chicken is no problem whatsoever. You grab them by the neck, stare deep into their eyes, and you will see the back of their skull.

GrantMoyer 2y ago
I feel the same way about some people.
spaceman_2020 2y ago
My wife is grossed out if I eat anything other than chicken or fish. She says that cow, goat, and pig feel too "present" to eat. I begrudgingly agree.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 2y ago
  I mean they're all mammals, just like us. Intelligence is just one thing we can consider when deciding what's morally acceptable to kill and consume. Genetic proximity to humans clearly matters to many people as well: lots of people stick to seafood and/or poultry despite the fact that octopuses and some birds can be quite intelligent. Sociability could be a third factor. Pigs are smarter than dogs, cows are smarter than horses, but we choose not to eat dogs and horses because they more readily comprehend and obey our commands, enabling us to connect with them on a basic social level.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    >Intelligence is just one thing we can consider when deciding what's morally acceptable to kill and consume. Genetic proximity to humans clearly matters to many people as well: lots of people stick to seafood and/or poultry despite the fact that octopuses and some birds can be quite intelligent. Sure, but it's pretty obvious that fish and chicken are very stupid animals, and those mammals are much smarter, so I'm not sure that genetic proximity is as important as you think it is. Octopuses are the only real standout here: they really are quite intelligent, which is even more remarkable because they're invertebrates. And yes, some birds are quite intelligent (like crows), but we don't eat those types of birds (probably because they're just not very good as food). >cows are smarter than horses, but we choose not to eat dogs and horses because they more readily comprehend and obey our commands Who's "we"? Horsemeat is very easy to find in restaurants here in Japan. It's not bad if cooked properly, but it's a lot like deer meat. Deer are pretty stupid too (probably about as smart as cows), but they aren't normally eaten either, and it's because most people just don't like the taste that much (it's "gamey"), and it's difficult to cook. Cows taste better than horses because they have a lot more fat. Also, octopuses have been mentioned here many times, but in the US they aren't a terribly popular food item, whereas here in Japan they're very common (along with squid). So differing cultures and culinary traditions I think have a lot to do with it too, just as with horses above.