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I must be doing something wrong then. I’ve used almost exactly this analogy. But rather than mollify the client it leads to frustration and annoyance: they see

I must be doing something wrong then. I’ve used almost exactly this analogy. But rather than mollify the client it leads to frustration and annoyance: they see the features as similar and are frustrated/skeptical about why I’ve claimed this new sitting feature is so different than the other one. Often goes with sentences that start with “can’t you just…”.

beeboobaa3 2y ago
The response to that is, "Can't you?"
- blululu 2y ago
  The reason someone is paying you cash for your time and expertise is because they cannot do it. If you can’t do it either then why are they paying you? In these situations you need to be very delicate about explaining the nature of the challenges in a way that doesn’t make them feel like an idiot for paying you money in the first place.
  - Dr4kn 2y ago
    If they are paying for expertise they should also listen to the expertise
  - beeboobaa3 2y ago
    Try having the same argument with your plumber, electrician or dentist. You're there because you are reliant on their expertise and can't just do it yourself. Otherwise you'd be doing so.
    - cgriswald 2y ago
      That’s funny because I argued with my plumber. He wanted to do a long term solution to a problem I have. It was a good solution. I said I didn’t want to do it because it was quite a bit less expensive for me to just deal with the acute issues when they arise over the rest of my lifetime. I’m usually paying experts to advise me so I can make my own decisions and then enact those decisions. Occasionally, I will have an opinion on methods. I’m not reliant individually on any expert, even if I am ultimately reliant upon their profession. And I hire people for work I can do all the time. Experts are often wrong. They misunderstand requirements. They don’t fully understand the system they are modifying. They can be lazy. They can consider a job or client as less important than other jobs or clients. They can lie. They can have incentives that don’t work for the client. They can be terrible at their work. Even when experts are good and honest, they can make decisions that don’t work for their clients. My divorce lawyer was amazing when he was on the warpath, but I told him I didn’t want to take that approach generally because I knew my ex’s back would go up and we’d both pay a lot more in legal fees to achieve the same results. He was good at his job and he wasn’t wrong, but that particular method didn’t work for me.
bena 2y ago
Fuck “just”. When someone says “just”, all I hear is “I have no fucking clue”. Just is a bitch mother that seeks to handwave away any potential problems. If it’s just that, I’ll gladly step aside and let you do it. But if you then tell me you can’t do it, then you better sit down, shut the fuck up, and listen when I tell you something is more complicated than you think.
- jonhohle 2y ago
  Agree. I’ve tried to remove it from any suggestion I give. I’ll use it when referring to what I plan to do, but never “can’t you just”.
  - bena 2y ago
    That's like the only way it should be used. You know your situation and problems. You know when "just" is just.
- dockd 2y ago
  When my daughter was working in her university's dining hall, the most demanding orders always began with "just". Can I just have a non-fat sugar-free vanilla latte with two pumps that isn't too hot?
- bityard 2y ago
  Adam Savage has a most excellent rant about the outrageous arrogance of the phrase, "Why don't you just..." I highly recommend it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP4CKn86qGY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP4CKn86qGY My best example of this is my father-in-law. He's an absolutely wonderful man, generous to a fault and all of that. Fancies himself a handyman. But I had to stop asking for his help with around-the-house projects out of sheer anger and frustration because every SINGLE time I made a decision about how to proceed with the job or pick which tool to use to cut something, he would stop and and ask, "Well, why don't you just do X instead?" It didn't seem to matter if I explained my reasoning, or if doing X meant redoing a hour of work just to get back to where we currently were. I even attempted to humor him by trying things his way whether or not they were going to work out. (They often didn't). Eventually it ended in me saying "no" way more often than "yes" and he would infer that I was refusing his help and he'd throw his hands up and walk away.
KolenCh 2y ago
IIRC Jack “Wow” Davis (a photoshop expert) mentioned this is what his clients like to say to him: “Can you just remove the thing in the photo?” The “thing” can be the eyeglass they are wearing, etc. And he said, “come on, I’m going to come to your house and take it again.” “Can you just…” sums it all.
ConcernedCoder 2y ago
ask them if they push back the same way with other knowledge professionals like the family doctor or lawyer...
- berkes 2y ago
  If I'm to believe a friend, who'se a family doctor, this is exactly what happens. Especially since corona. And not a tiny minority, but a big group. He told me that a few decades ago, there were the occasional homeopathic or other "nutcases". But that today this is common. What I've read about this, it's a global trend, in a fly-wheel (feedback-loop) effect with mostly populism. Populism feeds distrust in authorities like lawyers, doctors, journalists. And distrust in authorities feeds populism.
  - dumbfounder 2y ago
    There are good doctors and bad doctors just like any other profession. I have gotten plenty of bad advice over the years from doctors. Took me 2 years of going to various doctors to figure out I was having a reaction to mold. My neurologist just had me try all these different medicines, almost all made me worse, but none of them got to the actual problem. This is VERY common. Doctors so often just treat symptoms. That said, there are idiots out there that don't listen to anything a doctor says about politically charged issues like Covid. Homeopathy is mostly nuts. But integrative medicine is also often poo-pooed, but it makes logical sense to treat the whole person, not just symptoms. But I am sure there are plenty of crackpots there too. The waters are muddy my friend, not much is clear.
    - wholinator2 2y ago
      Yes, i feel like the biggest problems getting real treatment are in equal parts, people not thinking of the concomitant factor/asking the right things/being afraid to tell certain things, and doctors having no where near enough time to actually listen to someone and think about their situation. I try not to fall into the first category but I've known many people who do. Though I've had many experiences with fast talking, eyes glazed, interrupt me to push the first thing that comes to mind type doctors. Once i had to fight with guy to just get him to let me finish a sentence! He changed his mind every 5 words trying to get out of there but it'd've been faster if he just let me talk! It's infuriating, I'll never go back to a doctor like that. Seems like he didn't even wait to leave the room before i was out of his mind, possibly i never even entered it
dumbfounder 2y ago
Steve Jobs would just say "figure it out". Way less condescending because he isn't trying to offer a solution to something that is your domain of expertise, but it also says he doesn't care if you think it's not feasible right now. Think hard and find a creative way to make it feasible. This often needs to be said because people tend to jump to the conclusion that it is too hard before they take time to think about possible solutions.
- klabb3 2y ago
  While I agree this is an improvement, and that it respects the agency of the worker, it’s not enough. Pushing true boundaries may in rare cases be catalyzed by an inspirational leader, but that’s exceedingly rare even if survivorship bias makes us think different. On the contrary, our tech graveyards are littered with bold bets that failed because leaders deluded themselves with yes-men.
- ska 2y ago
  “Figure it out” can work well, but only if it is predated by “what resources do you need” and a reasonable solution about that. If the “why can’t we do X” is “because we’re a team of 4 and already overburdened” there may not be any practical solutions.
  - CSMastermind 2y ago
    I generally find that more resources are often the easiest thing to get and rarely helpful. Most of the time the issue is the "9 women can't have a baby in a month" problem where adding more resources is not going to make things happen faster - in fact it may slow things down. But the business doesn't understand that software is not like construction where adding more people really will get that ditch dug faster. At its core software is not making a thing - it's inventing a machine that makes the thing. If you're Little Debbie and you have a machine that makes cupcakes it's hard when the business comes in and says, "now it needs to make fudge rounds." And no amount of extra people working on the problem will get that machine retooled any faster.
    - 2y ago
herval 2y ago
to be honest, it's a flaky analogy at best. Houses are physical constructs - you can't have the toilet be physically in two different places of the house at the same time. Also dramatic changes (eg rebuilding an entire house) take more time than simpler changes (painting a wall), which isn't the case in software (sometimes a tiny change takes longer than building entire features)
- TuringTest 2y ago
  A better analogy is a tapestry. Developers are like weavers, threading designs line by line on a substrate. Some task like "add a leaf to this flower's stem" can be done incrementally, but others like "move the flower one inch up" require unweaving the whole design and rebuilding it from scratch.
throwaway984393 2y ago
[dead]
hinkley 2y ago
Those people get annoyed at plumbers too. See also why estimates aren’t actual costs. Every plumber runs into this constantly. Sorry you have a crushed sewer line add a zero to the cost.
xhrpost 2y ago
I've gotten to the point where I now see the word "just" as profanity in our profession.

beeboobaa3 2y ago

The response to that is, "Can't you?"

blululu 2y ago
The reason someone is paying you cash for your time and expertise is because they cannot do it. If you can’t do it either then why are they paying you? In these situations you need to be very delicate about explaining the nature of the challenges in a way that doesn’t make them feel like an idiot for paying you money in the first place.
- Dr4kn 2y ago
  If they are paying for expertise they should also listen to the expertise
- beeboobaa3 2y ago
  Try having the same argument with your plumber, electrician or dentist. You're there because you are reliant on their expertise and can't just do it yourself. Otherwise you'd be doing so.
  - cgriswald 2y ago
    That’s funny because I argued with my plumber. He wanted to do a long term solution to a problem I have. It was a good solution. I said I didn’t want to do it because it was quite a bit less expensive for me to just deal with the acute issues when they arise over the rest of my lifetime. I’m usually paying experts to advise me so I can make my own decisions and then enact those decisions. Occasionally, I will have an opinion on methods. I’m not reliant individually on any expert, even if I am ultimately reliant upon their profession. And I hire people for work I can do all the time. Experts are often wrong. They misunderstand requirements. They don’t fully understand the system they are modifying. They can be lazy. They can consider a job or client as less important than other jobs or clients. They can lie. They can have incentives that don’t work for the client. They can be terrible at their work. Even when experts are good and honest, they can make decisions that don’t work for their clients. My divorce lawyer was amazing when he was on the warpath, but I told him I didn’t want to take that approach generally because I knew my ex’s back would go up and we’d both pay a lot more in legal fees to achieve the same results. He was good at his job and he wasn’t wrong, but that particular method didn’t work for me.

bena 2y ago

Fuck “just”. When someone says “just”, all I hear is “I have no fucking clue”. Just is a bitch mother that seeks to handwave away any potential problems. If it’s just that, I’ll gladly step aside and let you do it. But if you then tell me you can’t do it, then you better sit down, shut the fuck up, and listen when I tell you something is more complicated than you think.

jonhohle 2y ago
Agree. I’ve tried to remove it from any suggestion I give. I’ll use it when referring to what I plan to do, but never “can’t you just”.
- bena 2y ago
  That's like the only way it should be used. You know your situation and problems. You know when "just" is just.
dockd 2y ago
When my daughter was working in her university's dining hall, the most demanding orders always began with "just". Can I just have a non-fat sugar-free vanilla latte with two pumps that isn't too hot?
bityard 2y ago
Adam Savage has a most excellent rant about the outrageous arrogance of the phrase, "Why don't you just..." I highly recommend it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP4CKn86qGY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP4CKn86qGY My best example of this is my father-in-law. He's an absolutely wonderful man, generous to a fault and all of that. Fancies himself a handyman. But I had to stop asking for his help with around-the-house projects out of sheer anger and frustration because every SINGLE time I made a decision about how to proceed with the job or pick which tool to use to cut something, he would stop and and ask, "Well, why don't you just do X instead?" It didn't seem to matter if I explained my reasoning, or if doing X meant redoing a hour of work just to get back to where we currently were. I even attempted to humor him by trying things his way whether or not they were going to work out. (They often didn't). Eventually it ended in me saying "no" way more often than "yes" and he would infer that I was refusing his help and he'd throw his hands up and walk away.

KolenCh 2y ago

IIRC Jack “Wow” Davis (a photoshop expert) mentioned this is what his clients like to say to him: “Can you just remove the thing in the photo?” The “thing” can be the eyeglass they are wearing, etc. And he said, “come on, I’m going to come to your house and take it again.” “Can you just…” sums it all.

ConcernedCoder 2y ago

ask them if they push back the same way with other knowledge professionals like the family doctor or lawyer...

berkes 2y ago
If I'm to believe a friend, who'se a family doctor, this is exactly what happens. Especially since corona. And not a tiny minority, but a big group. He told me that a few decades ago, there were the occasional homeopathic or other "nutcases". But that today this is common. What I've read about this, it's a global trend, in a fly-wheel (feedback-loop) effect with mostly populism. Populism feeds distrust in authorities like lawyers, doctors, journalists. And distrust in authorities feeds populism.
- dumbfounder 2y ago
  There are good doctors and bad doctors just like any other profession. I have gotten plenty of bad advice over the years from doctors. Took me 2 years of going to various doctors to figure out I was having a reaction to mold. My neurologist just had me try all these different medicines, almost all made me worse, but none of them got to the actual problem. This is VERY common. Doctors so often just treat symptoms. That said, there are idiots out there that don't listen to anything a doctor says about politically charged issues like Covid. Homeopathy is mostly nuts. But integrative medicine is also often poo-pooed, but it makes logical sense to treat the whole person, not just symptoms. But I am sure there are plenty of crackpots there too. The waters are muddy my friend, not much is clear.
  - wholinator2 2y ago
    Yes, i feel like the biggest problems getting real treatment are in equal parts, people not thinking of the concomitant factor/asking the right things/being afraid to tell certain things, and doctors having no where near enough time to actually listen to someone and think about their situation. I try not to fall into the first category but I've known many people who do. Though I've had many experiences with fast talking, eyes glazed, interrupt me to push the first thing that comes to mind type doctors. Once i had to fight with guy to just get him to let me finish a sentence! He changed his mind every 5 words trying to get out of there but it'd've been faster if he just let me talk! It's infuriating, I'll never go back to a doctor like that. Seems like he didn't even wait to leave the room before i was out of his mind, possibly i never even entered it

dumbfounder 2y ago

Steve Jobs would just say "figure it out". Way less condescending because he isn't trying to offer a solution to something that is your domain of expertise, but it also says he doesn't care if you think it's not feasible right now. Think hard and find a creative way to make it feasible. This often needs to be said because people tend to jump to the conclusion that it is too hard before they take time to think about possible solutions.

klabb3 2y ago
While I agree this is an improvement, and that it respects the agency of the worker, it’s not enough. Pushing true boundaries may in rare cases be catalyzed by an inspirational leader, but that’s exceedingly rare even if survivorship bias makes us think different. On the contrary, our tech graveyards are littered with bold bets that failed because leaders deluded themselves with yes-men.
ska 2y ago
“Figure it out” can work well, but only if it is predated by “what resources do you need” and a reasonable solution about that. If the “why can’t we do X” is “because we’re a team of 4 and already overburdened” there may not be any practical solutions.
- CSMastermind 2y ago
  I generally find that more resources are often the easiest thing to get and rarely helpful. Most of the time the issue is the "9 women can't have a baby in a month" problem where adding more resources is not going to make things happen faster - in fact it may slow things down. But the business doesn't understand that software is not like construction where adding more people really will get that ditch dug faster. At its core software is not making a thing - it's inventing a machine that makes the thing. If you're Little Debbie and you have a machine that makes cupcakes it's hard when the business comes in and says, "now it needs to make fudge rounds." And no amount of extra people working on the problem will get that machine retooled any faster.
  - 2y ago

herval 2y ago

to be honest, it's a flaky analogy at best. Houses are physical constructs - you can't have the toilet be physically in two different places of the house at the same time. Also dramatic changes (eg rebuilding an entire house) take more time than simpler changes (painting a wall), which isn't the case in software (sometimes a tiny change takes longer than building entire features)

TuringTest 2y ago
A better analogy is a tapestry. Developers are like weavers, threading designs line by line on a substrate. Some task like "add a leaf to this flower's stem" can be done incrementally, but others like "move the flower one inch up" require unweaving the whole design and rebuilding it from scratch.

throwaway984393 2y ago

[dead]

hinkley 2y ago

Those people get annoyed at plumbers too. See also why estimates aren’t actual costs. Every plumber runs into this constantly. Sorry you have a crushed sewer line add a zero to the cost.

xhrpost 2y ago

I've gotten to the point where I now see the word "just" as profanity in our profession.