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I feel like there could be little need for rules if people had a little common sense, then if you have targets, other start doing the bare minimum, I'd rather h

I feel like there could be little need for rules if people had a little common sense, then if you have targets, other start doing the bare minimum, I'd rather have parasites like WPEngine put off

EasyMark 2y ago
I agree, if I would making bookoo bucks off of someone else’s “open”platform, you could be 100% sure I would be feeding the golden goose some grain to build some rapport. If I’m playing with it in my homelab, maybe not so much but try occasionally to donate if it’s an OSS project that $10-50 makes a difference for.
- eli 2y ago
  And if you didn't want to do that it would be appropriate for the OSS project to retaliate?
  - consteval 2y ago
    It's not retaliation to revoke free access to your web resources. If I scrape some website, I could be IP banned at any time. That's just how it goes. It's one thing to use web resources on a small scale, as a user. It's another to milk them dry and practically DDOS their servers. That can, and will, get you banned. Open source or not.
    - nijave 2y ago
      It is if they get mad you sent a cease and desist.
    - eli 2y ago
      Of course it's retaliation. Wordpress.org said as much in the announcement - they don't like WP Engine's business model, don't think they contribute enough upstream, etc. And therefore they cut off access to the wordpress.org update servers. Nothing about "practically DDOS" of the server.
      - consteval 2y ago
        Yes, retaliation for using web resources without paying. > wordpress.org update servers. Nothing about "practically DDOS" of the server Yes, when you have hundreds of thousands of users this is expensive. What you're describing is expensive. WPE doesn't maintain these servers, presumably because it's hard and expensive. You can't expect to hit someone's servers with, I'm guessing, hundreds of thousands of requests a day and not pay a dime. If you did that, you would be banned. From just about any free service.
        eli 2y ago
        Wordpress.org wrote a whole public post about why they cut off WPE and their reasons are just what I said. I don't understand how you can so confidently assert that the real reason is something different.
dingnuts 2y ago
in this case the "rules" you're talking about are licensing terms, so I have trouble interpreting your statement as anything other than "licenses wouldnt be needed if everyone would just use software the way the author wants" How is WPEngine a parasite? If you don't want people to use your code don't release it GPL
- consteval 2y ago
  Has absolutely nothing to do with the license, the code was and is GPL-2. GPL-2 doesn't force you to allow free access to web resources. This is a separate problem altogether. You'd get banned even if they were closed source.
0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
Does that mean every successful company needs to start financing Linux, curl, Postgres, Python, etc which are undoubtedly powering who knows how much internal infrastructure? Either you are a free license or not.
- voltaireodactyl 2y ago
  What you describe constitutes an ideal scenario, frankly. Similar to paying taxes for using roads for deliveries.
- BadHumans 2y ago
  I would actually say yes, they should start doing exactly that.
- vagrantJin 2y ago
  Its not a crazy concept , the real world non-idealized version of your statement is called tax. We pay taxes for access to free public services.
  - krapp 2y ago
    It is a crazy concept, because taxes are coerced by governments under the threat of violence, whereas the freedoms of FOSS software are intended to be entirely non-coercive. To require compensation of any kind for access and the right to use and distribute code is contrary to the spirit of free and open source software. If people want to do that, then fair enough, just don't call if free or open source. And don't license your code under free or open source licenses if you care about getting credit or compensation or anything but maximizing software freedom.
    - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
      > It is a crazy concept, because taxes are coerced by governments under the threat of violence, whereas the freedoms of FOSS software are intended to be entirely non-coercive. In doubt, you will have to enforce the freedoms of FOSS by going to a court (i.e. use the governmental "violence enforcement system"). On the other hand, if you pay your taxes "voluntarily", you won't be coerced by the government. In other words: in both cases threats of violence are involved.

I feel like there could be little need for rules if people had a little common sense, then if you have targets, other start doing the bare minimum, I'd rather have parasites like WPEngine put off

EasyMark 2y ago

I agree, if I would making bookoo bucks off of someone else’s “open”platform, you could be 100% sure I would be feeding the golden goose some grain to build some rapport. If I’m playing with it in my homelab, maybe not so much but try occasionally to donate if it’s an OSS project that $10-50 makes a difference for.

eli 2y ago
And if you didn't want to do that it would be appropriate for the OSS project to retaliate?
- consteval 2y ago
  It's not retaliation to revoke free access to your web resources. If I scrape some website, I could be IP banned at any time. That's just how it goes. It's one thing to use web resources on a small scale, as a user. It's another to milk them dry and practically DDOS their servers. That can, and will, get you banned. Open source or not.
  - nijave 2y ago
    It is if they get mad you sent a cease and desist.
  - eli 2y ago
    Of course it's retaliation. Wordpress.org said as much in the announcement - they don't like WP Engine's business model, don't think they contribute enough upstream, etc. And therefore they cut off access to the wordpress.org update servers. Nothing about "practically DDOS" of the server.
    - consteval 2y ago
      Yes, retaliation for using web resources without paying. > wordpress.org update servers. Nothing about "practically DDOS" of the server Yes, when you have hundreds of thousands of users this is expensive. What you're describing is expensive. WPE doesn't maintain these servers, presumably because it's hard and expensive. You can't expect to hit someone's servers with, I'm guessing, hundreds of thousands of requests a day and not pay a dime. If you did that, you would be banned. From just about any free service.
      - eli 2y ago
        Wordpress.org wrote a whole public post about why they cut off WPE and their reasons are just what I said. I don't understand how you can so confidently assert that the real reason is something different.

dingnuts 2y ago

in this case the "rules" you're talking about are licensing terms, so I have trouble interpreting your statement as anything other than "licenses wouldnt be needed if everyone would just use software the way the author wants" How is WPEngine a parasite? If you don't want people to use your code don't release it GPL

consteval 2y ago
Has absolutely nothing to do with the license, the code was and is GPL-2. GPL-2 doesn't force you to allow free access to web resources. This is a separate problem altogether. You'd get banned even if they were closed source.

0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago

Does that mean every successful company needs to start financing Linux, curl, Postgres, Python, etc which are undoubtedly powering who knows how much internal infrastructure? Either you are a free license or not.

voltaireodactyl 2y ago
What you describe constitutes an ideal scenario, frankly. Similar to paying taxes for using roads for deliveries.
BadHumans 2y ago
I would actually say yes, they should start doing exactly that.
vagrantJin 2y ago
Its not a crazy concept , the real world non-idealized version of your statement is called tax. We pay taxes for access to free public services.
- krapp 2y ago
  It is a crazy concept, because taxes are coerced by governments under the threat of violence, whereas the freedoms of FOSS software are intended to be entirely non-coercive. To require compensation of any kind for access and the right to use and distribute code is contrary to the spirit of free and open source software. If people want to do that, then fair enough, just don't call if free or open source. And don't license your code under free or open source licenses if you care about getting credit or compensation or anything but maximizing software freedom.
  - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
    > It is a crazy concept, because taxes are coerced by governments under the threat of violence, whereas the freedoms of FOSS software are intended to be entirely non-coercive. In doubt, you will have to enforce the freedoms of FOSS by going to a court (i.e. use the governmental "violence enforcement system"). On the other hand, if you pay your taxes "voluntarily", you won't be coerced by the government. In other words: in both cases threats of violence are involved.