4 ms·

>If you're a tiny org, you don't need to contribute back. But if you're making half a billion in revenue every year on top of someone else's tech, you need to s

>If you're a tiny org, you don't need to contribute back. But if you're making half a billion in revenue every year on top of someone else's tech, you need to stay involved and contribute back in a very significant way. For example Sony sold more than 100 million units of PS4 and made billions of dollars from it and how much they contributed to the open source projects they've used in PS4? Take a look at OSS projects used in PS4: https://www.playstation.com/en-us/oss/ps4/ https://www.playstation.com/en-us/oss/ps4/ Did they contribute anything? Did they contribute 100% enough or just 20% or 30%? If the software is open sourced and if license allows you to do anything with it then you are indeed free to do anything with it including selling products which include OSS.

hobofan 2y ago
1. This is pure whataboutism. Just because Sony doesn't contribute (I don't know whether they do or don't), doesn't make it right. 2. There is obviously a difference between "selling products that include OSS" and "selling OSS 1:1". It's not like Sony's firmware/dashboard is maintained by "OpenGamingConsoleDashboard" and they are selling a 95% repackage of that to their end users (also ignoring the hardware). This pertains to the software maintenance logistics layer and not the licensing layer. Sure, both in the Sony and WPEngine cases they are in the clear on the licensing, but that doesn't make for sustainable development of the underlying software. I'd also wager that if the OSS projects used in the PS4 would drum up enough of a social media stink, they'd have decent chances of getting some compensation (e.g. the TLDraw maintainers did that quite a few times successfully).
- KomoD 2y ago
  They're not "selling OSS 1:1", they're selling managed hosting.
consteval 2y ago
You're free to do it but nobody has to help you certainly. Ultimately it's a matter of common sense. Sure, if I leave out my "take one" bowl on Halloween and someone takes it all, there's no rules against that. But next year I might be more cautious and hand out the candy myself - now what? If you've built a business off taking all my candy and reselling it, you're fucked! If you had just been less greedy and taken, say, 10 instead of the whole bowl I might not have cared.
- poincaredisk 2y ago
  If the rule is "take one" and someone takes everything, than a rule is in fact breached. In your example the candy bowl is explicitly marked as "take as much as you want" and someone does. If you don't want that, label it appropriately next year. I'm this case, the license explicitly allows everyone to use the software for free. I don't understand your candy analogies. If you're not OK with people using your software for free, use a commercial license (or a dual licensing model, or one of a hundred possible solutions other than a free license).
  - consteval 2y ago
    > I'm this case, the license explicitly allows everyone to use the software for free. Has absolutely 0 to do with open source. The software was, and is, GPL. This is about using free web APIs. Yes you will get banned for that, on absolutely any service. Don't believe me? Try it out.
spookie 2y ago
Sony contributes back. To FreeBSD even, they are even listed in their list of contributors. Hell they're one of the only 2 companies that let you compile android with their firmware for their phones. They even have instructions on their site. This is whatabouttism, but damn, they don't deserve this kinda talk. Example: https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/blob/0abe05aeac29d99786401b9078e97dcead35f7f3/sys/net/altq/altq.h#L3 https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/blob/0abe05aeac29d997...
- mrkramer 2y ago
  >Sony contributes back. To FreeBSD even, they are even listed in their list of contributors. I just used Sony as an example to tinker what is the definition of contributing enough that Matt Mullenweg was talking about:https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine/#:~:text=(To%20summarize%2C%20they%20do%20about%20half%20a%20billion%20in%20revenue%20on%20top%20of%20WordPress%20and%20contribute%20back%2040%20hours%20a%20week%2C%20Automattic%20is%20a%20similar%20size%20and%20contributes%20back%203%2C915%20hours%20a%20week https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine/#:~:text=(To%20....) I don't have anything against Sony.
Wowfunhappy 2y ago
I think this issue is complicated and I have no answers. However, I do feel Wordpress is much more central to WPEngine's business than e.g. FreeBSD is to Sony's.

hobofan 2y ago

1. This is pure whataboutism. Just because Sony doesn't contribute (I don't know whether they do or don't), doesn't make it right. 2. There is obviously a difference between "selling products that include OSS" and "selling OSS 1:1". It's not like Sony's firmware/dashboard is maintained by "OpenGamingConsoleDashboard" and they are selling a 95% repackage of that to their end users (also ignoring the hardware). This pertains to the software maintenance logistics layer and not the licensing layer. Sure, both in the Sony and WPEngine cases they are in the clear on the licensing, but that doesn't make for sustainable development of the underlying software. I'd also wager that if the OSS projects used in the PS4 would drum up enough of a social media stink, they'd have decent chances of getting some compensation (e.g. the TLDraw maintainers did that quite a few times successfully).

KomoD 2y ago
They're not "selling OSS 1:1", they're selling managed hosting.

consteval 2y ago

You're free to do it but nobody has to help you certainly. Ultimately it's a matter of common sense. Sure, if I leave out my "take one" bowl on Halloween and someone takes it all, there's no rules against that. But next year I might be more cautious and hand out the candy myself - now what? If you've built a business off taking all my candy and reselling it, you're fucked! If you had just been less greedy and taken, say, 10 instead of the whole bowl I might not have cared.

poincaredisk 2y ago
If the rule is "take one" and someone takes everything, than a rule is in fact breached. In your example the candy bowl is explicitly marked as "take as much as you want" and someone does. If you don't want that, label it appropriately next year. I'm this case, the license explicitly allows everyone to use the software for free. I don't understand your candy analogies. If you're not OK with people using your software for free, use a commercial license (or a dual licensing model, or one of a hundred possible solutions other than a free license).
- consteval 2y ago
  > I'm this case, the license explicitly allows everyone to use the software for free. Has absolutely 0 to do with open source. The software was, and is, GPL. This is about using free web APIs. Yes you will get banned for that, on absolutely any service. Don't believe me? Try it out.

spookie 2y ago

Sony contributes back. To FreeBSD even, they are even listed in their list of contributors. Hell they're one of the only 2 companies that let you compile android with their firmware for their phones. They even have instructions on their site. This is whatabouttism, but damn, they don't deserve this kinda talk. Example: https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/blob/0abe05aeac29d99786401b9078e97dcead35f7f3/sys/net/altq/altq.h#L3 https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/blob/0abe05aeac29d997...

mrkramer 2y ago
>Sony contributes back. To FreeBSD even, they are even listed in their list of contributors. I just used Sony as an example to tinker what is the definition of contributing enough that Matt Mullenweg was talking about:https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine/#:~:text=(To%20summarize%2C%20they%20do%20about%20half%20a%20billion%20in%20revenue%20on%20top%20of%20WordPress%20and%20contribute%20back%2040%20hours%20a%20week%2C%20Automattic%20is%20a%20similar%20size%20and%20contributes%20back%203%2C915%20hours%20a%20week https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine/#:~:text=(To%20....) I don't have anything against Sony.

Wowfunhappy 2y ago

I think this issue is complicated and I have no answers. However, I do feel Wordpress is much more central to WPEngine's business than e.g. FreeBSD is to Sony's.