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Javascript has a quite different use-case audience than Rust. As an example, try to convince a guy like Linus Torvalds to officially support a particular PL for

Javascript has a quite different use-case audience than Rust. As an example, try to convince a guy like Linus Torvalds to officially support a particular PL for Linux kernel development, when his absolute priority (quite rightly so) is predicable, performant and portable code generation on the same level as raw C, with ease-of-use of a PL not being even a distant second, if considered at all. JavaScript does not really have to live up to those kinds of challenges. The assumption that "[Rust] stagnation" is due to some kind of "Rust committee inefficiencies" might be incorrect.

josephg 2y ago
Author here. > Javascript has a quite different use-case audience than Rust. Eh. That sounds like a "just so" explanation to me. Linus Torvalds doesn't work on the rust compiler. I think I could make much more convincing arguments that javascript should move slower than rust - given there's so many large language runtime projects. (V8, Safari, Javascript, Node, Deno, Bun, etc etc). But evidently, that isn't the case. I'm open to the reason for rust's slow development being that the language developers want the language to move slowly. Thats fine. But, I personally don't want that. I've been waiting for generators to ship for 7 years. Or TAIT to appear - again, for years. I'd much rather rust to move faster. Of course I attribute all of this to the process & team which makes these decisions. What else is there? What else has any affect on the development of rust?
- gary17the 2y ago
  No, Linus Torvalds doesn't work on the Rust compiler, but it is up to people like Linus to support or shoot down a particular PL for a particular use case. And here we arrive at the heart of our discussion: I am personally much more interested in being able to use Rust for Linux kernel development at the cost of any programming convenience, while you are more interested in being able to use cutting-edge PL features. It is probably simply not possible to have a PL that does everything for everyone.
  - josephg 2y ago
    > I am personally much more interested in being able to use Rust for Linux kernel development at the cost of any programming convenience, while you are more interested in being able to use cutting-edge PL features. Some of the "cutting-edge PL features" I want are things like function effects - which would allow you to (at compile time) mark that a function cannot panic. This is something the linux kernel has been asking for from rust for years. I think our interests are aligned.
    - biorach 2y ago
      > Some of the "cutting-edge PL features" I want are things like function effects That's probably the least convincing of your examples. My understanding is that effects systems can get complicated fast, and there's no consensus yet on what a good general purpose implementation should look like, never mind a specific implementation for Rust.
    - sandywaffles 2y ago
      > I want are things like function effects And it's not a cut and dry issue to add. Function effects would add a lot of cognitive load to the developer along with more implicit bounds which increases accidental API break changes. You talk about the compiler implicitly adding the bounds to functions, but what happens when I now add a line in my function that allocates when before it didn't? I just broke my API unless I was also defensively testing all implicit bounds. And if I was testing all implicit bounds, can the language no longer add new bounds? Reversing that and requiring the callee to defensively declare all bounds is a borderline non-starter because it'd such a huge burden to write any function or refactor anything.

josephg 2y ago

Author here. > Javascript has a quite different use-case audience than Rust. Eh. That sounds like a "just so" explanation to me. Linus Torvalds doesn't work on the rust compiler. I think I could make much more convincing arguments that javascript should move slower than rust - given there's so many large language runtime projects. (V8, Safari, Javascript, Node, Deno, Bun, etc etc). But evidently, that isn't the case. I'm open to the reason for rust's slow development being that the language developers want the language to move slowly. Thats fine. But, I personally don't want that. I've been waiting for generators to ship for 7 years. Or TAIT to appear - again, for years. I'd much rather rust to move faster. Of course I attribute all of this to the process & team which makes these decisions. What else is there? What else has any affect on the development of rust?

gary17the 2y ago
No, Linus Torvalds doesn't work on the Rust compiler, but it is up to people like Linus to support or shoot down a particular PL for a particular use case. And here we arrive at the heart of our discussion: I am personally much more interested in being able to use Rust for Linux kernel development at the cost of any programming convenience, while you are more interested in being able to use cutting-edge PL features. It is probably simply not possible to have a PL that does everything for everyone.
- josephg 2y ago
  > I am personally much more interested in being able to use Rust for Linux kernel development at the cost of any programming convenience, while you are more interested in being able to use cutting-edge PL features. Some of the "cutting-edge PL features" I want are things like function effects - which would allow you to (at compile time) mark that a function cannot panic. This is something the linux kernel has been asking for from rust for years. I think our interests are aligned.
  - biorach 2y ago
    > Some of the "cutting-edge PL features" I want are things like function effects That's probably the least convincing of your examples. My understanding is that effects systems can get complicated fast, and there's no consensus yet on what a good general purpose implementation should look like, never mind a specific implementation for Rust.
  - sandywaffles 2y ago
    > I want are things like function effects And it's not a cut and dry issue to add. Function effects would add a lot of cognitive load to the developer along with more implicit bounds which increases accidental API break changes. You talk about the compiler implicitly adding the bounds to functions, but what happens when I now add a line in my function that allocates when before it didn't? I just broke my API unless I was also defensively testing all implicit bounds. And if I was testing all implicit bounds, can the language no longer add new bounds? Reversing that and requiring the callee to defensively declare all bounds is a borderline non-starter because it'd such a huge burden to write any function or refactor anything.