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This is in no small-part due to how broken the system is in providing value to the students. Why do the teachers care? Let the students not learn and suffer fr

This is in no small-part due to how broken the system is in providing value to the students. Why do the teachers care? Let the students not learn and suffer from it. The only reason they pull stunts like this is because it actually doesn't have as much of an impact. Why do employers stop asking about grades, and instead focus on actual experience? Because all things equal, that's what matters more. So can we blame students for trying speedrun these barriers to get to what's actually important? And not what they're told is important by educators who have an obvious bias, but what they can see in the reality of the job market.

goatlover 2y ago
Not everything in education is about getting a job. I took electives in college that weren't part of my degree, and they were interesting and enriching. They didn't help me get a job, and that's fine. There is the point of view that education should first be about produced well-rounded and informed citezenry, not just be a mill for producing endless young grist for corporations.
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  Yes, that's often the common contrast between higher education and the early years: first, you gain knowledge and learn facts, you memorize by rote, you pass standardized tests. In college/university, you learn how to think. You learn how to reason. You increase wisdom, solve problems, and reach an intellectual maturity. That's always been the value of college for me; a degree being a means to an end, perhaps, but the quest for wisdom and reason is far greater than that of career.
  - randomdata 2y ago
    > In college/university, you learn how to think. I learned how to think on the farm after school. You don't have much choice but to when the shit gets real. Is the rise in college attainment directly a result of most kids no longer having access to farms (or even anything close to being equivalent)? > That's always been the value of college for me The historic value was collaboration on ideas. It is all well and good being able to think in solitude, but one can only think so much. Many people all thinking at once and sharing their thoughts is an incredible force multiplier. College offered a place for minds to come together. I'd argue that the internet has become that place nowadays. Which is perhaps why you see college as a metaphorical farm these days instead?
    - AStonesThrow 2y ago
      Thank you for that cool insight and perspective. Indeed, not all of us need college to reach intellectual maturity. A good family farm is a great way to face the realities of nature and day-to-day human existence. Our retired bishop was raised on a farm, and despite his subsequent education and formation, I daresay it would've been life on the farm that prepared him for life in the church, and he may well agree!
- randomdata 2y ago
  That's what the parent is saying. If you are in school to try and be a more well rounded person, but then rely on tools like ChatGPT to do it for you, then the only loss is yours. Which then questions, who cares? Why not let you waste your time and money? But he is also saying that employers have perverted the incentives, giving reason for students to lean on such tools to gain an edge in the job market with minimal input. Which is what raises alarm with educators, as they know their job is on the line if employers start to question the authenticity of the degree. There isn't enough money in people just wanting to be better people. Let's be honest, the vast, vast, vast majority or students are only there because they believe they need to tick a box when job searching.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    > Let's be honest, the vast, vast, vast majority or students are only there because they believe they need to tick a box when job searching. Maybe they -actually- need to tick that box and it doesn’t matter to employers how it’s ticked, just that it is ticked. For some reason, academics and educators really seem to hate the reality that most people go to university not to get a well rounded education, and not for personal enrichment, but because employer gatekeepers require it. If employers stopped requiring a college degree, I bet college enrollment would drop 90%.
    - randomdata 2y ago
      To be fair, modern university was originally sold on the idea of getting more people into university research labs where they could work to develop and take ownership of new capital. This is where the idea that you will make more money if you go to university comes from. As capital is a multiplier on labour, labour * capital = higher income over labour alone. Of course, people don't listen and the vast majority just went and got jobs working for someone else's existing capital after spending a modicum of time in university classrooms, somehow thinking that is the same thing. As a result, the higher income and other promises never materialized. Incomes have held quite stagnant even as more and more people graduate from university. I can see why educators are annoyed that the grand hope for a future paved with intensive capital creation ended up being just a bunch of dumb-dumbs who believe they need to tick a box. But it is still their bread and butter. Reality has to be faced. But perhaps what they really are annoyed by is that they equally failed to create capital themselves, and thus try to sooth the pangs of failure with pretending "Oh, I was just here to become a better person!"?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
metaphor 2y ago
> Why do the teachers care? Let the students not learn and suffer from it. > The only reason they pull stunts like this is because it actually doesn't have as much of an impact. > And not what they're told is important by educators who have an obvious bias, but what they can see in the reality of the job market. Oh, how you've missed the forest for the trees. These students paid real money to voluntarily attend an undergraduate ethics and technology course, and like the complacent naivete of lemmings, immediately walked right into a philosophy professor's well-laid trap in a way that directly supports her research agenda[1]: >> Her current projects focus on ways in which emerging technologies threaten to undermine essential conditions for human flourishing. These students were played just as easily as the commercial tools they blindly leaned into, and if that doesn't sharpen their critical faculties while eliciting a meaningful opportunity to introspect on what the future has in store for them, I don't know what will. [1] https://ualr.edu/philosophy/faculty/megan-fritts/ https://ualr.edu/philosophy/faculty/megan-fritts/
- Izkata 2y ago
  > These students paid real money to voluntarily attend an undergraduate ethics and technology course Did they really? I'm pretty sure mine was required and most of us didn't really care about it. We were paying for the other classes, not that one.
  - metaphor 2y ago
    Yeah, really. It's an upper division elective[1] bucketed into PHIL 4380 generic catch-all, capped at 17 seats, and primarily targeting philosophy majors[2]. To be sure, my alma mater taught me a thing or two about independent research towards a due diligence imperative. Did yours? Moreover, you voluntarily paid for and committed to earning a holistic degree---full stop. How you appraise its normative pieceparts is wholesale irrelevant, and the matter of extracting value from the vested experience is entirely on adult you. Something about leading a horse to water comes vaguely to mind. A relevant counterfactual is that you could have bypassed lower division altogether and just audited upper division courses which you independently deemed to contain intrinsic market value as a non-degree-seeking student, dramatically reducing financial liabilities and time commitments to academic lethargy. Hell, you could have skipped university altogether and developed the necessary technical skills that you think the market values online for free! And yet you didn't...almost as if you desire the fringe benefits that society extends to formal degree holders without actually putting forth the honest effort expected of your accredited peer equivalents across the nation. Have your cake and eat it too much? Example of real world consequences? Every year, my employer swallows an absurd indirect expense explicitly reminding its workforce of statutory regulation, internal policy, and professional obligation towards ethical practice to cover its ass because so many of my so called "learned" peers conveniently dismiss the softer elements of their formal education---major election years being particularly egregious---and then these former employees cry when an industry conditioned to anticipate such halfbaked behavior catches them in the act, chews them up, and spits them out like expendable cud without regret. You reap what you sow. [1] https://a.ualr.edu/classes/index.php?term=202460&campus=M&searchType%5B%5D=U&keyword=Class%3A+ST%3A+Ethics+of+Technology+%28Philosophy%29&selectedSubjects= https://a.ualr.edu/classes/index.php?term=202460&campus=M&se... [2] https://catalog.ualr.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=20&poid=5285 https://catalog.ualr.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=20&poid=...

goatlover 2y ago

Not everything in education is about getting a job. I took electives in college that weren't part of my degree, and they were interesting and enriching. They didn't help me get a job, and that's fine. There is the point of view that education should first be about produced well-rounded and informed citezenry, not just be a mill for producing endless young grist for corporations.

AStonesThrow 2y ago
Yes, that's often the common contrast between higher education and the early years: first, you gain knowledge and learn facts, you memorize by rote, you pass standardized tests. In college/university, you learn how to think. You learn how to reason. You increase wisdom, solve problems, and reach an intellectual maturity. That's always been the value of college for me; a degree being a means to an end, perhaps, but the quest for wisdom and reason is far greater than that of career.
- randomdata 2y ago
  > In college/university, you learn how to think. I learned how to think on the farm after school. You don't have much choice but to when the shit gets real. Is the rise in college attainment directly a result of most kids no longer having access to farms (or even anything close to being equivalent)? > That's always been the value of college for me The historic value was collaboration on ideas. It is all well and good being able to think in solitude, but one can only think so much. Many people all thinking at once and sharing their thoughts is an incredible force multiplier. College offered a place for minds to come together. I'd argue that the internet has become that place nowadays. Which is perhaps why you see college as a metaphorical farm these days instead?
  - AStonesThrow 2y ago
    Thank you for that cool insight and perspective. Indeed, not all of us need college to reach intellectual maturity. A good family farm is a great way to face the realities of nature and day-to-day human existence. Our retired bishop was raised on a farm, and despite his subsequent education and formation, I daresay it would've been life on the farm that prepared him for life in the church, and he may well agree!
randomdata 2y ago
That's what the parent is saying. If you are in school to try and be a more well rounded person, but then rely on tools like ChatGPT to do it for you, then the only loss is yours. Which then questions, who cares? Why not let you waste your time and money? But he is also saying that employers have perverted the incentives, giving reason for students to lean on such tools to gain an edge in the job market with minimal input. Which is what raises alarm with educators, as they know their job is on the line if employers start to question the authenticity of the degree. There isn't enough money in people just wanting to be better people. Let's be honest, the vast, vast, vast majority or students are only there because they believe they need to tick a box when job searching.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  > Let's be honest, the vast, vast, vast majority or students are only there because they believe they need to tick a box when job searching. Maybe they -actually- need to tick that box and it doesn’t matter to employers how it’s ticked, just that it is ticked. For some reason, academics and educators really seem to hate the reality that most people go to university not to get a well rounded education, and not for personal enrichment, but because employer gatekeepers require it. If employers stopped requiring a college degree, I bet college enrollment would drop 90%.
  - randomdata 2y ago
    To be fair, modern university was originally sold on the idea of getting more people into university research labs where they could work to develop and take ownership of new capital. This is where the idea that you will make more money if you go to university comes from. As capital is a multiplier on labour, labour * capital = higher income over labour alone. Of course, people don't listen and the vast majority just went and got jobs working for someone else's existing capital after spending a modicum of time in university classrooms, somehow thinking that is the same thing. As a result, the higher income and other promises never materialized. Incomes have held quite stagnant even as more and more people graduate from university. I can see why educators are annoyed that the grand hope for a future paved with intensive capital creation ended up being just a bunch of dumb-dumbs who believe they need to tick a box. But it is still their bread and butter. Reality has to be faced. But perhaps what they really are annoyed by is that they equally failed to create capital themselves, and thus try to sooth the pangs of failure with pretending "Oh, I was just here to become a better person!"?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

metaphor 2y ago

> Why do the teachers care? Let the students not learn and suffer from it. > The only reason they pull stunts like this is because it actually doesn't have as much of an impact. > And not what they're told is important by educators who have an obvious bias, but what they can see in the reality of the job market. Oh, how you've missed the forest for the trees. These students paid real money to voluntarily attend an undergraduate ethics and technology course, and like the complacent naivete of lemmings, immediately walked right into a philosophy professor's well-laid trap in a way that directly supports her research agenda[1]: >> Her current projects focus on ways in which emerging technologies threaten to undermine essential conditions for human flourishing. These students were played just as easily as the commercial tools they blindly leaned into, and if that doesn't sharpen their critical faculties while eliciting a meaningful opportunity to introspect on what the future has in store for them, I don't know what will. [1] https://ualr.edu/philosophy/faculty/megan-fritts/ https://ualr.edu/philosophy/faculty/megan-fritts/

Izkata 2y ago
> These students paid real money to voluntarily attend an undergraduate ethics and technology course Did they really? I'm pretty sure mine was required and most of us didn't really care about it. We were paying for the other classes, not that one.
- metaphor 2y ago
  Yeah, really. It's an upper division elective[1] bucketed into PHIL 4380 generic catch-all, capped at 17 seats, and primarily targeting philosophy majors[2]. To be sure, my alma mater taught me a thing or two about independent research towards a due diligence imperative. Did yours? Moreover, you voluntarily paid for and committed to earning a holistic degree---full stop. How you appraise its normative pieceparts is wholesale irrelevant, and the matter of extracting value from the vested experience is entirely on adult you. Something about leading a horse to water comes vaguely to mind. A relevant counterfactual is that you could have bypassed lower division altogether and just audited upper division courses which you independently deemed to contain intrinsic market value as a non-degree-seeking student, dramatically reducing financial liabilities and time commitments to academic lethargy. Hell, you could have skipped university altogether and developed the necessary technical skills that you think the market values online for free! And yet you didn't...almost as if you desire the fringe benefits that society extends to formal degree holders without actually putting forth the honest effort expected of your accredited peer equivalents across the nation. Have your cake and eat it too much? Example of real world consequences? Every year, my employer swallows an absurd indirect expense explicitly reminding its workforce of statutory regulation, internal policy, and professional obligation towards ethical practice to cover its ass because so many of my so called "learned" peers conveniently dismiss the softer elements of their formal education---major election years being particularly egregious---and then these former employees cry when an industry conditioned to anticipate such halfbaked behavior catches them in the act, chews them up, and spits them out like expendable cud without regret. You reap what you sow. [1] https://a.ualr.edu/classes/index.php?term=202460&campus=M&searchType%5B%5D=U&keyword=Class%3A+ST%3A+Ethics+of+Technology+%28Philosophy%29&selectedSubjects= https://a.ualr.edu/classes/index.php?term=202460&campus=M&se... [2] https://catalog.ualr.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=20&poid=5285 https://catalog.ualr.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=20&poid=...