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none of those things are accessible to someone who has say, a 4-yr fine arts degree. They're also extremes and not typical, unless your car is at the dealer, yo

none of those things are accessible to someone who has say, a 4-yr fine arts degree. They're also extremes and not typical, unless your car is at the dealer, your backyard is on a make-over show, or that tree is hanging over your house & powerlines

Kye 2y ago
Yep. Once you have any level of education past high school, lots of the better jobs just won't hire you. They assume you're biding your time until a better job comes by and any time or money spent training you will be wasted. The "labor shortage" is a fantasy created by people with jobs to offer having unrealistic expectations.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Surely someone with a college degree that wants to be a plumber can simply not disclose their degree?
  - Kye 2y ago
    Oh, they'll know. All that book learnin' changes you. With life and experience and life experience, you can stop coming off as a stuck-up out of touch asshole to people doing this kind of work. My entire generation got endless refrains of the message that these are the kinds of jobs you fail into if you don't get a degree. That doesn't break easily. It seems like the next crowd gets similar messages.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      If I understand you, maybe that is another psycological bottleneck on the side of workers. Hopefully time will change the perception and people will realize that a plumber making 200/hr isn't a failure, and has advantages over being unemployed with a 4 year art degree and 200k debt.
      - Kye 2y ago
        You've severely misunderstood. No, the problem here is the person with the jobs to offer who is overly picky about beginner attitude, won't hire anyone, then goes on Facebook and yells "no one wants to work anymore!" The person with the degree understands they messed up after years of job hunting and would be happy for the normal working gig, but it's not on offer to them.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Seems like from what you described, the main challenge is reliance on entrenched businesses are gatekeeping the entry knowledge and training. I wonder if trade schools would be a good way to bypass this bottle neck. I suppose you would still have the problem of people selecting the low ROI degree instead of trade schools, but they would still have the option after they understand "they messed up".
s1artibartfast 2y ago
I guess my fundamental question is why arent these jobs accessible? They dont reqire any degree at all, so it seems like they should be open to both the 4 year art graduate and a high school graduate. I live in a high cost of living area, but these are typical prices here. Call 10 autoshops and thats the typical rate. Even people on yelp operating out of their house arent much cheaper. Heck, residential plumbers charge $150-200/hr. So what is the bottleneck? Is it regulatory barriers to opening businesses? Is it a lack of knowledge? Is it poor discovery in the information age? Unions? It seems like there are lots of people making great money doing these things, and lots of people looking for work.
- Kye 2y ago
  I'm not sure how you imagine the process of getting into one of these no-degree businesses goes. You don't just "start doing it." First, you need tools and transportation. Then you need to know what the hell you're doing. Then, probably, some certifications. And now you have to find people to pay you in a highly competitive market full of scammers who make it even harder to sell services. The usual path is to work for someone else until you have the skills and tools and certs to strike out on your own. That someone is not going to hire you if it looks like you won't stick around as soon as a better option comes along. And no bank will give a startup loan to someone who's never done it before. People make great money doing these things because they've done all this for years and built up the tools and skills and certifications and referral network to make it. You don't start charging $200/hour any more than you start out in SV making $1m/year.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    so now we are starting to get somewhere. It seems you think the bottlenecks are similar to the ones I flagged such as knowledge, discovery and certification. If you know a way to find the people starting that aren't charging 200/hr, please let me know because I want to hire them.
    - HappMacDonald 2y ago
      You can always try putting out an ad on Craigslist: "Need someone to fix my car (or landscape your yard or prune your tree, whichever thing you're trying to get done) for $X/hr. No experience or certification or warranty of any kind required, if you get hurt I guess I'm paying your medical bills, if you've never done this before now's your chance to muddle through and find out how on my dime, and if you ruin my property well then it sucks to be me."

Kye 2y ago

Yep. Once you have any level of education past high school, lots of the better jobs just won't hire you. They assume you're biding your time until a better job comes by and any time or money spent training you will be wasted. The "labor shortage" is a fantasy created by people with jobs to offer having unrealistic expectations.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
Surely someone with a college degree that wants to be a plumber can simply not disclose their degree?
- Kye 2y ago
  Oh, they'll know. All that book learnin' changes you. With life and experience and life experience, you can stop coming off as a stuck-up out of touch asshole to people doing this kind of work. My entire generation got endless refrains of the message that these are the kinds of jobs you fail into if you don't get a degree. That doesn't break easily. It seems like the next crowd gets similar messages.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    If I understand you, maybe that is another psycological bottleneck on the side of workers. Hopefully time will change the perception and people will realize that a plumber making 200/hr isn't a failure, and has advantages over being unemployed with a 4 year art degree and 200k debt.
    - Kye 2y ago
      You've severely misunderstood. No, the problem here is the person with the jobs to offer who is overly picky about beginner attitude, won't hire anyone, then goes on Facebook and yells "no one wants to work anymore!" The person with the degree understands they messed up after years of job hunting and would be happy for the normal working gig, but it's not on offer to them.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Seems like from what you described, the main challenge is reliance on entrenched businesses are gatekeeping the entry knowledge and training. I wonder if trade schools would be a good way to bypass this bottle neck. I suppose you would still have the problem of people selecting the low ROI degree instead of trade schools, but they would still have the option after they understand "they messed up".

s1artibartfast 2y ago

I guess my fundamental question is why arent these jobs accessible? They dont reqire any degree at all, so it seems like they should be open to both the 4 year art graduate and a high school graduate. I live in a high cost of living area, but these are typical prices here. Call 10 autoshops and thats the typical rate. Even people on yelp operating out of their house arent much cheaper. Heck, residential plumbers charge $150-200/hr. So what is the bottleneck? Is it regulatory barriers to opening businesses? Is it a lack of knowledge? Is it poor discovery in the information age? Unions? It seems like there are lots of people making great money doing these things, and lots of people looking for work.

Kye 2y ago
I'm not sure how you imagine the process of getting into one of these no-degree businesses goes. You don't just "start doing it." First, you need tools and transportation. Then you need to know what the hell you're doing. Then, probably, some certifications. And now you have to find people to pay you in a highly competitive market full of scammers who make it even harder to sell services. The usual path is to work for someone else until you have the skills and tools and certs to strike out on your own. That someone is not going to hire you if it looks like you won't stick around as soon as a better option comes along. And no bank will give a startup loan to someone who's never done it before. People make great money doing these things because they've done all this for years and built up the tools and skills and certifications and referral network to make it. You don't start charging $200/hour any more than you start out in SV making $1m/year.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  so now we are starting to get somewhere. It seems you think the bottlenecks are similar to the ones I flagged such as knowledge, discovery and certification. If you know a way to find the people starting that aren't charging 200/hr, please let me know because I want to hire them.
  - HappMacDonald 2y ago
    You can always try putting out an ad on Craigslist: "Need someone to fix my car (or landscape your yard or prune your tree, whichever thing you're trying to get done) for $X/hr. No experience or certification or warranty of any kind required, if you get hurt I guess I'm paying your medical bills, if you've never done this before now's your chance to muddle through and find out how on my dime, and if you ruin my property well then it sucks to be me."