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For anyone curious to hear more about how this happens, and a discussion with someone who was a former police officer (maybe even detective?) yet still fell vic

For anyone curious to hear more about how this happens, and a discussion with someone who was a former police officer (maybe even detective?) yet still fell victim, The Daily did an episode on this in April as well In general, I've seen lots of 'victim blaming' with these sorts of scams. I mean, I do understand that it's easy to sit there and think 'I understand sending money the first time, but how do you still fall for it the 6th time they ask you to send more money?'. But I think it's important to remember that victims are often older or new to the country*. These scams are designed and refined to make you feel trapped. * I'm aware the OP involves a Canadian couple and the NYT story involves an American couple. I don't think the direct country matters. Most of these scams are all about scaring and isolating someone. NYT link - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/12/podcasts/the-daily/scam-cartel-timeshare.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/12/podcasts/the-daily/scam-c... YT link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3biituRAiVg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3biituRAiVg

hosh 2y ago
Timeshares themselves are already shady, and there are many people desperate to offload them. Also, there are psychological biases at play too, regardless of whether you are older or newer to the country. One of key bias in the engine that runs scams and cons is that, once you have done something for someone, you are more likely to keep doing things for them. Even knowing this does not really inoculate you to that effect.
- panarky 2y ago
  People who are gullible enough to buy shady timeshares are gullible for other scams too.
  - bombcar 2y ago
    I remember reading that there were entire product lines that omit you ever bought one mail order you were forever on the lists of “suckers who buy nose hair trimmers mail order” and they passed those lists around like candy.
  - hosh 2y ago
    You can be not gullible, and they will find some way to get at you. Like to argue? They will jujutsu that. Think you are too intelligent to fall for this? They'll use that. If you find a trick that works, they learn and adapt. Best way is to walk away. Easier said than done for a lot of people. Robert Greene has a book about this. In one of the examples, he talked about a scammer trying to scam Henry Ford. Ford had no imagination. The scammer failed. Most people are not a Henry Ford.
    - bawolff 2y ago
      > Think you are too intelligent to fall for this? Thinking you are too smart to ever fall for something is a sure sign that you are probably a good victim.
      - talldatethrow 2y ago
        I sold cars for a decade in the SV area. The amount of times I've seen engineers, lawyers, accountants, doctors and higher level executives make errors is pretty high. No one is 100% ON all the time. The amount of times I watched very financially conscious people explain to me that they want to lease and then buy their vehicle afterwards, yet forget about sales tax during the buyout after lease end is comical. They were always surprised that even with a high money factor a lease to purchase still paid off...... Depending on how nice they were I would sometimes show them what the forgot.
      - BenjiWiebe 2y ago
        I read this over and over again, and I'm not sure I believe it. Or maybe the correct wording for my own case is that I'm too skeptical/cynical to fall for something. But it could be smarts too, because I enjoy learning about scams.
- mythrwy 2y ago
  Correct. Ebay is full of timeshare listings for next to nothing (if you don't consider even paying the annual fees isn't worth it in most cases). Years back my GF got roped into a timeshare presentation because she wanted free nights in a hotel room. After gently scolding her I printed off pages of Ebay timeshare listings and went to the presentation with her. What a high pressure scam. Anyway, we stayed the required time and when the guy took us off to "close the deal" I whipped the listings out of my pocket and said "Look at this! I can get a better deal on a better resort for $1!". The poor salesman just stood there with his mouth opened then finally said they would have our complimentary tickets at the desk thanks for attending.
  - hosh 2y ago
    My wife and I signed. It was exhausting. I did a token effort at looking at the contract and found the recension clause they had to include as required by law. When I asked about it, the way everyone else froze in that moment and then tried to downplay it stuck in my mind, but we were too exhausted and finished the paperwork. Immediately upon walking out and got to a local restaurant, my wife and I looked at each other and knew we made a mistake. We ended up looking up how to give notice for the recension and was able to execute it (even though their office was closed for the weekend; it was a good thing I've written and executed business contracts before). (For those curious, you state that you are giving notice of recension for the new property; and then you send it in at least three different ways in accordance to the contract, and get paper trail for each of those ways to prove that you sent them). It's how I knew about how people get trapped into this through property laws that normally protect property owners. Since then, I've let myself get impolite at timeshare salesmen. The high pressure sales start at those tables, even before you get invited for the pitch. They abuse the tendency for civil people to be polite and redirect civility to continue the pitch. (And the slickest of them will guilt trip you on being nasty to explain yourself ... at which they can keep pitching ...)
    - pyuser583 2y ago
      I’ve seen the same “civility trap” with other salesmen. It’s truely dispicable.
- lupire 2y ago
  The real reason people "fall" for these pressure scams is that law enforcement will not help protect the victim against the predator, but because the victim is upstanding citizen but the predator is not, the predator or law enforcement will harm the victim if the victim tries to actively defend themselves against the predator.
jancsika 2y ago
> I mean, I do understand that it's easy to sit there and think 'I understand sending money the first time, but how do you still fall for it the 6th time they ask you to send more money?'. Such an assumption would show a clear lack of empathy, no? Esp. on HN where nearly all are familiar with data-mining and relentless targeting of people based on data. Time share companies are notoriously aggressive in their sales pitch. So "the set of people who bought time shares" already selects for people who have a much higher propensity to send money to these scammers, even multiple times. And upon being scammed, they probably also get their data sold to hundreds other scammers and get stuck in a recursive loop of scam attempts at a much higher rate than the average HN-er.
e40 2y ago
I listened to that podcast. I remember being really frustrated with the ex-cop and thinking there were so many red flags. I wonder if it really unfolded as presented.
Johnny555 2y ago
'I understand sending money the first time, but how do you still fall for it the 6th time they ask you to send more money?'. I think that falls under the "sunk cost fallacy". Like they are thinking "Well, I've invested so much money already and I'm so close to the payoff now, I may as well send a little more"
bigbacaloa 2y ago
[dead]

hosh 2y ago

Timeshares themselves are already shady, and there are many people desperate to offload them. Also, there are psychological biases at play too, regardless of whether you are older or newer to the country. One of key bias in the engine that runs scams and cons is that, once you have done something for someone, you are more likely to keep doing things for them. Even knowing this does not really inoculate you to that effect.

panarky 2y ago
People who are gullible enough to buy shady timeshares are gullible for other scams too.
- bombcar 2y ago
  I remember reading that there were entire product lines that omit you ever bought one mail order you were forever on the lists of “suckers who buy nose hair trimmers mail order” and they passed those lists around like candy.
- hosh 2y ago
  You can be not gullible, and they will find some way to get at you. Like to argue? They will jujutsu that. Think you are too intelligent to fall for this? They'll use that. If you find a trick that works, they learn and adapt. Best way is to walk away. Easier said than done for a lot of people. Robert Greene has a book about this. In one of the examples, he talked about a scammer trying to scam Henry Ford. Ford had no imagination. The scammer failed. Most people are not a Henry Ford.
  - bawolff 2y ago
    > Think you are too intelligent to fall for this? Thinking you are too smart to ever fall for something is a sure sign that you are probably a good victim.
    - talldatethrow 2y ago
      I sold cars for a decade in the SV area. The amount of times I've seen engineers, lawyers, accountants, doctors and higher level executives make errors is pretty high. No one is 100% ON all the time. The amount of times I watched very financially conscious people explain to me that they want to lease and then buy their vehicle afterwards, yet forget about sales tax during the buyout after lease end is comical. They were always surprised that even with a high money factor a lease to purchase still paid off...... Depending on how nice they were I would sometimes show them what the forgot.
    - BenjiWiebe 2y ago
      I read this over and over again, and I'm not sure I believe it. Or maybe the correct wording for my own case is that I'm too skeptical/cynical to fall for something. But it could be smarts too, because I enjoy learning about scams.
mythrwy 2y ago
Correct. Ebay is full of timeshare listings for next to nothing (if you don't consider even paying the annual fees isn't worth it in most cases). Years back my GF got roped into a timeshare presentation because she wanted free nights in a hotel room. After gently scolding her I printed off pages of Ebay timeshare listings and went to the presentation with her. What a high pressure scam. Anyway, we stayed the required time and when the guy took us off to "close the deal" I whipped the listings out of my pocket and said "Look at this! I can get a better deal on a better resort for $1!". The poor salesman just stood there with his mouth opened then finally said they would have our complimentary tickets at the desk thanks for attending.
- hosh 2y ago
  My wife and I signed. It was exhausting. I did a token effort at looking at the contract and found the recension clause they had to include as required by law. When I asked about it, the way everyone else froze in that moment and then tried to downplay it stuck in my mind, but we were too exhausted and finished the paperwork. Immediately upon walking out and got to a local restaurant, my wife and I looked at each other and knew we made a mistake. We ended up looking up how to give notice for the recension and was able to execute it (even though their office was closed for the weekend; it was a good thing I've written and executed business contracts before). (For those curious, you state that you are giving notice of recension for the new property; and then you send it in at least three different ways in accordance to the contract, and get paper trail for each of those ways to prove that you sent them). It's how I knew about how people get trapped into this through property laws that normally protect property owners. Since then, I've let myself get impolite at timeshare salesmen. The high pressure sales start at those tables, even before you get invited for the pitch. They abuse the tendency for civil people to be polite and redirect civility to continue the pitch. (And the slickest of them will guilt trip you on being nasty to explain yourself ... at which they can keep pitching ...)
  - pyuser583 2y ago
    I’ve seen the same “civility trap” with other salesmen. It’s truely dispicable.
lupire 2y ago
The real reason people "fall" for these pressure scams is that law enforcement will not help protect the victim against the predator, but because the victim is upstanding citizen but the predator is not, the predator or law enforcement will harm the victim if the victim tries to actively defend themselves against the predator.

jancsika 2y ago

> I mean, I do understand that it's easy to sit there and think 'I understand sending money the first time, but how do you still fall for it the 6th time they ask you to send more money?'. Such an assumption would show a clear lack of empathy, no? Esp. on HN where nearly all are familiar with data-mining and relentless targeting of people based on data. Time share companies are notoriously aggressive in their sales pitch. So "the set of people who bought time shares" already selects for people who have a much higher propensity to send money to these scammers, even multiple times. And upon being scammed, they probably also get their data sold to hundreds other scammers and get stuck in a recursive loop of scam attempts at a much higher rate than the average HN-er.

e40 2y ago

I listened to that podcast. I remember being really frustrated with the ex-cop and thinking there were so many red flags. I wonder if it really unfolded as presented.

Johnny555 2y ago

'I understand sending money the first time, but how do you still fall for it the 6th time they ask you to send more money?'. I think that falls under the "sunk cost fallacy". Like they are thinking "Well, I've invested so much money already and I'm so close to the payoff now, I may as well send a little more"

bigbacaloa 2y ago

[dead]