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I am with you that it would be even better if any financial transaction rooted in a subscription should come with a revokation token + url to unsubscribe. But

by pintxo 2y ago

I am with you that it would be even better if any financial transaction rooted in a subscription should come with a revokation token + url to unsubscribe. But this sounds like even harder to get, so I’ll settle for the more simple version described above in the meantime.

AStonesThrow 2y ago
Here's a fundamental dialectic tension that makes unsubscribing arduous: Companies are literally banking on long-term subscriptions for their bottom line. If a customer has made a commitment to a gym or a service for 12 months, or 3 years, or perpetuity, then that company is also putting the customer's future payments into their budget projections. Now they DEPEND ON YOU for solvency! So you can see that a company has a right to send you to retention or make overtures before you outright stop paying them. And you see why so many things have gone to AutoPay where the company extracts cash from your account, rather than waiting on you to write them a check, and doing the dance of late notices, late fees, collection agencies. They simply can't be a creditor to deadbeat customers anymore. So it behooves us to think long-and-hard before that free trial, or committing to a subscription we probably won't use or want soon. To think about the future difficulty of canceling rather than the cool perks we get today. To think about passing this info on to our loved ones or PoA who'll need to deal with it at some point. Because it's not merely about the consumer. It's about businesses being able to plan for their own future, and being able to pay their own employees, and keep their lights on. They depend on those subscriptions from us, because they represent loyalty and commitment.
- pintxo 2y ago
  > They depend on those subscriptions from us, because they represent loyalty and commitment. A subscription that only continues to exist because the unsubscribe process is harder than it needs to be can never represent loyality and commitment, as both require an act of free will.
  - AStonesThrow 2y ago
    The act of free will was when you signed up in the first place and consented to being charged until cancellation, yeah? The acts of free will are when you continue using and enjoying their services for N months/years. An initial commitment and consent leads to interdependence and cooperation. Loyalty and trust must be earned, but provided that they are earned, they shouldn't be flouted in a capricious act. Why are you canceling? You found a cheaper price? A more attractive deal? Service was bad or not worth your money? Most everyone would agree that many commitments entail responsibilities as well. Do you accept responsibility, and liability, as a customer? If a company sends you to retention or comes up with special offers to keep you as a customer, that is not necessarily malicious behavior: they're demonstrating that they value your business, especially your money and future payments, and they're showing you what it's worth to keep that loyalty and commitment, and that's their act of free will, yes? The company would say that the retention process is still subject to free will, but they've got policies, you signed on to those policies, so let's follow the policies. Your free-will act is to decline those come-ons; it's your free will to refuse to run the gauntlet, but hey, caveat emptor? Can I one-click unsubscribe from my landlady? One-click close a bank or brokerage account? One-click renounce citizenship? Will California legislate 1-click Divorce Equality? Why not?
    - pintxo 2y ago
      A: Yes, why not? B: There is no reason to move this discussion from subscriptions to online services to some totally different topic like citizenship.
      - AStonesThrow 2y ago
        It is not a "totally different topic" IMHO, but a spectrum of loyalty and commitment. I don't know the magnitude of the expatriate phenomenon for US citizens. But it would seem that, if a country (e.g. Sudan, Cuba, Vietnam) encounters an atmosphere for people to flee and leave and renounce their citizenship, as refugees, asylum seekers, or immigrant workers, then that nation is losing their #1 most valuable resource. Does not your country depend on its citizens for wealth, peace, labor, and a future? By analogy, only by weak analogy, does a company depend upon subscribers for the same sorts of things. I'm just saying that if the bonds of marriage no longer mean much at all, and we're all tenants renting our homes, rather than lifelong spouses or landowners, then the value of loyalty and commitment is already diminished, so who cares if I cancel my Cable TV? https://youtu.be/V5DeDLI8_IM?si=S-t6z-zZpDviuoBM https://youtu.be/V5DeDLI8_IM?si=S-t6z-zZpDviuoBM

by pintxo 2y ago

AStonesThrow 2y ago

Here's a fundamental dialectic tension that makes unsubscribing arduous: Companies are literally banking on long-term subscriptions for their bottom line. If a customer has made a commitment to a gym or a service for 12 months, or 3 years, or perpetuity, then that company is also putting the customer's future payments into their budget projections. Now they DEPEND ON YOU for solvency! So you can see that a company has a right to send you to retention or make overtures before you outright stop paying them. And you see why so many things have gone to AutoPay where the company extracts cash from your account, rather than waiting on you to write them a check, and doing the dance of late notices, late fees, collection agencies. They simply can't be a creditor to deadbeat customers anymore. So it behooves us to think long-and-hard before that free trial, or committing to a subscription we probably won't use or want soon. To think about the future difficulty of canceling rather than the cool perks we get today. To think about passing this info on to our loved ones or PoA who'll need to deal with it at some point. Because it's not merely about the consumer. It's about businesses being able to plan for their own future, and being able to pay their own employees, and keep their lights on. They depend on those subscriptions from us, because they represent loyalty and commitment.

pintxo 2y ago
> They depend on those subscriptions from us, because they represent loyalty and commitment. A subscription that only continues to exist because the unsubscribe process is harder than it needs to be can never represent loyality and commitment, as both require an act of free will.
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  The act of free will was when you signed up in the first place and consented to being charged until cancellation, yeah? The acts of free will are when you continue using and enjoying their services for N months/years. An initial commitment and consent leads to interdependence and cooperation. Loyalty and trust must be earned, but provided that they are earned, they shouldn't be flouted in a capricious act. Why are you canceling? You found a cheaper price? A more attractive deal? Service was bad or not worth your money? Most everyone would agree that many commitments entail responsibilities as well. Do you accept responsibility, and liability, as a customer? If a company sends you to retention or comes up with special offers to keep you as a customer, that is not necessarily malicious behavior: they're demonstrating that they value your business, especially your money and future payments, and they're showing you what it's worth to keep that loyalty and commitment, and that's their act of free will, yes? The company would say that the retention process is still subject to free will, but they've got policies, you signed on to those policies, so let's follow the policies. Your free-will act is to decline those come-ons; it's your free will to refuse to run the gauntlet, but hey, caveat emptor? Can I one-click unsubscribe from my landlady? One-click close a bank or brokerage account? One-click renounce citizenship? Will California legislate 1-click Divorce Equality? Why not?
  - pintxo 2y ago
    A: Yes, why not? B: There is no reason to move this discussion from subscriptions to online services to some totally different topic like citizenship.
    - AStonesThrow 2y ago
      It is not a "totally different topic" IMHO, but a spectrum of loyalty and commitment. I don't know the magnitude of the expatriate phenomenon for US citizens. But it would seem that, if a country (e.g. Sudan, Cuba, Vietnam) encounters an atmosphere for people to flee and leave and renounce their citizenship, as refugees, asylum seekers, or immigrant workers, then that nation is losing their #1 most valuable resource. Does not your country depend on its citizens for wealth, peace, labor, and a future? By analogy, only by weak analogy, does a company depend upon subscribers for the same sorts of things. I'm just saying that if the bonds of marriage no longer mean much at all, and we're all tenants renting our homes, rather than lifelong spouses or landowners, then the value of loyalty and commitment is already diminished, so who cares if I cancel my Cable TV? https://youtu.be/V5DeDLI8_IM?si=S-t6z-zZpDviuoBM https://youtu.be/V5DeDLI8_IM?si=S-t6z-zZpDviuoBM