5 ms·

X11-Basic (1991-2020)

94 points by akkartik 2y ago

nazgulsenpai 2y ago
> The interpreter (xbasic) can be used as a shell. It can run basic-scripts in all environments, p.ex. *.cgi-Scripts for handling web-input. This is both terrifying and something I definitely want to play with.
- dhosek 2y ago
  Back in the olden days, when you booted up a computer, you got dumped into what was essentially a BASIC shell. If your input didn’t start with a line number it was interpreted immediately. Having only experienced that sort of environment, I didn’t understand how programming languages like Pascal that didn’t have line numbers worked.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    It would be cool to have a modern computer that booted up in 500ms to a Python REPL or something rather than a shell or desktop GUI. Just turn on and immediately start playing around with your programming language. I’m sure this exists somewhere.
    - jll29 2y ago
      If you think about it, "booting" is an anachronism anyhow. Your washing machine doesn't boot. Your radio or TV doesn't boot (ironically, more modern smart TVs might). Your car doesn't boot. When are we finally designing computers like proper products?
      - mgsouth 2y ago
        When you turn on the tv/washing machine/car/set-top box/toaster, and the LEDs all light up and twirl around, what do you think the device is doing?
      - jchw 2y ago
        I mean, all of those things do "start" somehow. Capacitors fill up, motors spin up, etc. Lots of them have had microcontrollers that boot for a longer time than you are giving credit. I have CRT TVs that "boot", they are effectively computers. There's a lot of philosophical ways you could see it as why a computer has to "boot" every time it is powered on, but the way I think about it, it all has to do with the volatility of memory. When power is removed, registers and DRAM all lose their state slowly. When a modern computer is powered on, a lot of things happen before the primary CPU even begins to boot. Once reset is pulled down on the CPU, it has to go through the process of actually booting. Each phase of bootstrap builds on the previous phase, on modern computers usually starting with some kind of ROM right on the CPU, to firmware in EEPROM which may boot in multiple phases, to a bootloader, to the actual operating system kernel. Embedded devices can be a lot simpler here but unilaterally there will be some sequence of code at the beginning whose job is to (re)initialize a bunch of state that holding reset won't. (From my spelunking on older hardware it seems like holding reset on most CPUs only ever does nearly the absolute bare minimum to make it possible for a bootrom to deal with the rest of initialization. Makes enough sense, really.) This has to happen every time a computer is powered on because it's a clean slate every time it turns on. The registers won't just magically get into some state, there has to be some integrated logic that can reset the processor to a known state and start the process of bootstrapping again. Let's say someone builds a computer with absolutely no volatile memory at all. If power is removed, registers keep all of their state. The RAM is durable. All of the caches are durable. Then what? Well, then you probably don't have to bootstrap every time the computer is turned on. At least in theory it ought to be possible to have a computer that works this way and simply resumes exactly where it left off when power is returned. You would probably design computers differently since you wouldn't necessarily need RAM and disk to be separate, it could possibly just be one thing, and what is now booting an OS would be somewhat more like installing it. I don't really think we have the technology to make something like this practical, and it's hard to imagine it much since our hardware and software is designed tightly around the assumption of these processes and the existence of multiple tiers of memory, but that's my opinion for the best philosophical justification for why computers must bootstrap. It would be interesting to see, though I don't really agree with the characterization that making a computer without a bootstrap process would make it any more "proper" of a product...
      - satiated_grue 2y ago
        When there is a return to nonvolatile memory? Consider a system like a PDP-8 with magnetic core memory. When you powered it on, memory had the same contents it had when powered off. You give the CPU an address of your favorite program in memory, start the CPU running, and you're off. Of course, if you don't have anything useful in memory, you've got to do something about that. Which is why, sticking with the PDP-8 family, the PDP-8i had the machine code (in octal) for a paper tape loader printed on the front of the system for you to toggle into core with your binary switches. https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8i/pics/pdp8i_frontpanel.shtml?large https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8i/pics/pdp8i_frontpanel.shtml...
    - toast0 2y ago
      You can build this. There's different strategies, but the least work option would be a minimal install of your OS of choice with your choice of REPL installed as /bin/init (or you can usually set init= as a kernel parameter) You'd probably need to tune your chosen kernel to hit 500ms, but it's doable. Harder if you include the time in system firmware though.
    - gabrielsroka 2y ago
      > [Raspberry] Pi is because originally we were going to produce a computer that could only really run Python. https://www.techspot.com/article/531-eben-upton-interview/ https://www.techspot.com/article/531-eben-upton-interview/ See also https://youtu.be/PAHBZImmXsI?t=590 https://youtu.be/PAHBZImmXsI?t=590
    - ian_hn 2y ago
      Like this maybe? https://tic80.com/ https://tic80.com/
ok123456 2y ago
There was also Basmark QuickBasic Compiler for Linux, https://archive.org/details/bqb49 https://archive.org/details/bqb49
gabrielsroka 2y ago
2022 https://github.com/kollokollo/X11Basic https://github.com/kollokollo/X11Basic And https://codeberg.org/kollo/X11Basic https://codeberg.org/kollo/X11Basic
- eadmund 2y ago
  I see from the latter link that the last update was in February 2024 — glad that the project is still alive!
_joel 2y ago
How have I lived for this long on the interwebs an never realised this was a thing?
- mmcgaha 2y ago
  I thought the same thing. I would have loved to have known about this 30 years ago. If only there had been an o'reilly book.
  - greenbit 2y ago
    Has O'R ever used a dog? Because BASIC would have to be a dog. =P
    - timbit42 2y ago
      Sloth
johnklos 2y ago
I had no idea that we could install third party software on TomTom car navigation systems until just now.
- buescher 2y ago
  Now I want to know what the most hackable US model was.
  - EvanAnderson 2y ago
    I see old TomTom units in thrift stores and pass them by. Now I want to score one. Wild. This looks like fun: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TTconsole https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TTconsole
    - buescher 2y ago
      If you click through to the github, it's the same guy from X11-Basic. Looks like he wrote it for the ONE-V3.
- _joel 2y ago
  > A WEB interface (via bloutooth and cgi-scripts) using a webserver. and serve cool warez
- donatj 2y ago
  Oh yeah, I ran a location logger on mine for years until Google Maps location tracking popped up. Now that they're killing it… I don't think I'll go back to using a TomTom any time soon lol
donatj 2y ago
> X11-Basic will compile on 64bit systems but it will not be 100% functional. X11-Basic internally uses 32bit pointers (--> VARPTR()). These are not compatible with 64bit. Some tricks have been implemented to make it work anyways, but do not expect 100% compatibility.
behringer 2y ago
I recently acquired an SGI Indy and was wondering if there was a good BASIC for it. Will have to check this out and see if it compiles!
- buescher 2y ago
  That would be fun. Give Iris Explorer a spin - the demos make any SGI seem like a supercomputer. (Better on an Indigo2 or Octane, but hey) I did real work in Octave + gnuplot on SGI machines of the era but I'd be surprised if recent versions compile.
DaoVeles 2y ago
I have said it many times before. You could fill a library with all the problem that BASIC leads too. But at its core is a message that is missing a little from modern computing - the ability to jump in and just get something simple built quick. The idea that you control the machine even if it is slow and sludgy. This also goes a lot for the leap from command prompts to GUI's. You trade off control for functionality and that is not necessarily a bad thing. I just wish it was easier to get back to a middle path on this. Many have tried but it all seems a little too fragmented.
- mepian 2y ago
  >But at its core is a message that is missing a little from modern computing - the ability to jump in and just get something simple built quick. That niche has been pretty much filled by Excel, for better or worse.
baudaux 2y ago
I definitely have to put X11 (Xwayland) inside https://exaequOS.com https://exaequOS.com for running this version of Basic !
xyzzy3000 2y ago
Slightly newer page here (v1.28): https://x11-basic.codeberg.page/ https://x11-basic.codeberg.page/

94 points by akkartik 2y ago

> The interpreter (xbasic) can be used as a shell. It can run basic-scripts in all environments, p.ex. *.cgi-Scripts for handling web-input. This is both terrifying and something I definitely want to play with.

dhosek 2y ago
Back in the olden days, when you booted up a computer, you got dumped into what was essentially a BASIC shell. If your input didn’t start with a line number it was interpreted immediately. Having only experienced that sort of environment, I didn’t understand how programming languages like Pascal that didn’t have line numbers worked.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  It would be cool to have a modern computer that booted up in 500ms to a Python REPL or something rather than a shell or desktop GUI. Just turn on and immediately start playing around with your programming language. I’m sure this exists somewhere.
  - jll29 2y ago
    If you think about it, "booting" is an anachronism anyhow. Your washing machine doesn't boot. Your radio or TV doesn't boot (ironically, more modern smart TVs might). Your car doesn't boot. When are we finally designing computers like proper products?
    - mgsouth 2y ago
      When you turn on the tv/washing machine/car/set-top box/toaster, and the LEDs all light up and twirl around, what do you think the device is doing?
    - jchw 2y ago
      I mean, all of those things do "start" somehow. Capacitors fill up, motors spin up, etc. Lots of them have had microcontrollers that boot for a longer time than you are giving credit. I have CRT TVs that "boot", they are effectively computers. There's a lot of philosophical ways you could see it as why a computer has to "boot" every time it is powered on, but the way I think about it, it all has to do with the volatility of memory. When power is removed, registers and DRAM all lose their state slowly. When a modern computer is powered on, a lot of things happen before the primary CPU even begins to boot. Once reset is pulled down on the CPU, it has to go through the process of actually booting. Each phase of bootstrap builds on the previous phase, on modern computers usually starting with some kind of ROM right on the CPU, to firmware in EEPROM which may boot in multiple phases, to a bootloader, to the actual operating system kernel. Embedded devices can be a lot simpler here but unilaterally there will be some sequence of code at the beginning whose job is to (re)initialize a bunch of state that holding reset won't. (From my spelunking on older hardware it seems like holding reset on most CPUs only ever does nearly the absolute bare minimum to make it possible for a bootrom to deal with the rest of initialization. Makes enough sense, really.) This has to happen every time a computer is powered on because it's a clean slate every time it turns on. The registers won't just magically get into some state, there has to be some integrated logic that can reset the processor to a known state and start the process of bootstrapping again. Let's say someone builds a computer with absolutely no volatile memory at all. If power is removed, registers keep all of their state. The RAM is durable. All of the caches are durable. Then what? Well, then you probably don't have to bootstrap every time the computer is turned on. At least in theory it ought to be possible to have a computer that works this way and simply resumes exactly where it left off when power is returned. You would probably design computers differently since you wouldn't necessarily need RAM and disk to be separate, it could possibly just be one thing, and what is now booting an OS would be somewhat more like installing it. I don't really think we have the technology to make something like this practical, and it's hard to imagine it much since our hardware and software is designed tightly around the assumption of these processes and the existence of multiple tiers of memory, but that's my opinion for the best philosophical justification for why computers must bootstrap. It would be interesting to see, though I don't really agree with the characterization that making a computer without a bootstrap process would make it any more "proper" of a product...
    - satiated_grue 2y ago
      When there is a return to nonvolatile memory? Consider a system like a PDP-8 with magnetic core memory. When you powered it on, memory had the same contents it had when powered off. You give the CPU an address of your favorite program in memory, start the CPU running, and you're off. Of course, if you don't have anything useful in memory, you've got to do something about that. Which is why, sticking with the PDP-8 family, the PDP-8i had the machine code (in octal) for a paper tape loader printed on the front of the system for you to toggle into core with your binary switches. https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8i/pics/pdp8i_frontpanel.shtml?large https://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8i/pics/pdp8i_frontpanel.shtml...
  - toast0 2y ago
    You can build this. There's different strategies, but the least work option would be a minimal install of your OS of choice with your choice of REPL installed as /bin/init (or you can usually set init= as a kernel parameter) You'd probably need to tune your chosen kernel to hit 500ms, but it's doable. Harder if you include the time in system firmware though.
  - gabrielsroka 2y ago
    > [Raspberry] Pi is because originally we were going to produce a computer that could only really run Python. https://www.techspot.com/article/531-eben-upton-interview/ https://www.techspot.com/article/531-eben-upton-interview/ See also https://youtu.be/PAHBZImmXsI?t=590 https://youtu.be/PAHBZImmXsI?t=590
  - ian_hn 2y ago
    Like this maybe? https://tic80.com/ https://tic80.com/

ok123456 2y ago

There was also Basmark QuickBasic Compiler for Linux, https://archive.org/details/bqb49 https://archive.org/details/bqb49

gabrielsroka 2y ago

2022 https://github.com/kollokollo/X11Basic https://github.com/kollokollo/X11Basic And https://codeberg.org/kollo/X11Basic https://codeberg.org/kollo/X11Basic

eadmund 2y ago
I see from the latter link that the last update was in February 2024 — glad that the project is still alive!

_joel 2y ago

How have I lived for this long on the interwebs an never realised this was a thing?

mmcgaha 2y ago
I thought the same thing. I would have loved to have known about this 30 years ago. If only there had been an o'reilly book.
- greenbit 2y ago
  Has O'R ever used a dog? Because BASIC would have to be a dog. =P
  - timbit42 2y ago
    Sloth

johnklos 2y ago

I had no idea that we could install third party software on TomTom car navigation systems until just now.

buescher 2y ago
Now I want to know what the most hackable US model was.
- EvanAnderson 2y ago
  I see old TomTom units in thrift stores and pass them by. Now I want to score one. Wild. This looks like fun: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TTconsole https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TTconsole
  - buescher 2y ago
    If you click through to the github, it's the same guy from X11-Basic. Looks like he wrote it for the ONE-V3.
_joel 2y ago
> A WEB interface (via bloutooth and cgi-scripts) using a webserver. and serve cool warez
donatj 2y ago
Oh yeah, I ran a location logger on mine for years until Google Maps location tracking popped up. Now that they're killing it… I don't think I'll go back to using a TomTom any time soon lol

donatj 2y ago

> X11-Basic will compile on 64bit systems but it will not be 100% functional. X11-Basic internally uses 32bit pointers (--> VARPTR()). These are not compatible with 64bit. Some tricks have been implemented to make it work anyways, but do not expect 100% compatibility.

behringer 2y ago

I recently acquired an SGI Indy and was wondering if there was a good BASIC for it. Will have to check this out and see if it compiles!

buescher 2y ago
That would be fun. Give Iris Explorer a spin - the demos make any SGI seem like a supercomputer. (Better on an Indigo2 or Octane, but hey) I did real work in Octave + gnuplot on SGI machines of the era but I'd be surprised if recent versions compile.

DaoVeles 2y ago

I have said it many times before. You could fill a library with all the problem that BASIC leads too. But at its core is a message that is missing a little from modern computing - the ability to jump in and just get something simple built quick. The idea that you control the machine even if it is slow and sludgy. This also goes a lot for the leap from command prompts to GUI's. You trade off control for functionality and that is not necessarily a bad thing. I just wish it was easier to get back to a middle path on this. Many have tried but it all seems a little too fragmented.

mepian 2y ago
>But at its core is a message that is missing a little from modern computing - the ability to jump in and just get something simple built quick. That niche has been pretty much filled by Excel, for better or worse.

baudaux 2y ago

I definitely have to put X11 (Xwayland) inside https://exaequOS.com https://exaequOS.com for running this version of Basic !

xyzzy3000 2y ago

Slightly newer page here (v1.28): https://x11-basic.codeberg.page/ https://x11-basic.codeberg.page/