3 ms·

Being Christian is about forgiving and loving your neighbours, isn’t it?

by kergonath 2y ago

edm0nd 2y ago
I dont think so really. The Crusades would have never happened if that were true.
- pirate787 2y ago
  The Crusades were a valid strategic response to the rise of Islam and the Islamic conquest of Byzantium and the Christian middle east.
- ImJamal 2y ago
  The crusades (at least the earlir ones) were primarily about protecting Christians who were being attacked and having their land taken by Muslims.
swat535 2y ago
Yes however in Christian theology it's both forgiveness _and_ repentance (which requires a penance), thus it doesn't mean you are free of consequences just because you have been forgiven. Additionally, loving your neighbour means calling on God's mercy which is willing the Good of the other (the definition of "what is good?" is answered differently in Christianity). Finally, not everyone is your neighbour (Jesus also acknowledged his enemies in Luke 19:27).
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  "Your enemies are still your neighbors" is entirely consistent with those statements and in fact was how it was understood by the consensus mainstream of christianity until very recently, and is still how it is understood in most variants other than american protestantism.
- kergonath 2y ago
  > Yes however in Christian theology it's both forgiveness _and_ repentance (which requires a penance), thus it doesn't mean you are free of consequences just because you have been forgiven. Indeed, but for this you need to let the person in question time to realise their errors and repent, which is impossible if you kill them. > Additionally, loving your neighbour means calling on God's mercy which is willing the Good of the other (the definition of "what is good?" is answered differently in Christianity). Calling on God’s mercy does not imply playing god ourselves and disposing of the lives of others. > Finally, not everyone is your neighbour (Jesus also acknowledged his enemies in Luke 19:27). It is not really relevant in this case, though. Murderers can be Christian as well and accept his “reign”. But yeah I take your point: the bible has a lot of inconsistencies.
subsaharancoder 2y ago
I love my children and I forgive them when they do wrong, but there's always consequences for actions.
- tristan957 2y ago
  Nobody here is saying there shouldn't be consequences. Instead we are saying that every single person should have the right to seek forgiveness from their creator(s). If you execute someone before they have have made things right (or not), you are playing the role of God.
  - subsaharancoder 2y ago
    Everyone does have the right to seek forgiveness from God, and He does forgive "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=1+John+1%3A9 https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=1+John+1%3A9, but in the same breath human beings are subject to government and the rules that go with it because God has given that authority "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God." https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=Romans+13%3A1 https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=Romans+13%3A1 If one willingly takes the life of an innocent human being with full knowledge that by that action they forfeit the right to live then it's a fitting consequence. “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed,For in the image of God He made man." https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=Genesis+9%3A6 https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=Genesis+9%3A6
    - gen220 2y ago
      I don’t know if I would quote from completely distinct sections of the Bible and use the phrase “in the same breath”. Romans 13:1-7 is a controversial section of Paul’s letters, because it implicitly contradicts the teachings of Christ if you stop in verse 1. If you look at the whole context of the passage, he seems to be placing conditions on verse 1 that would exclude pretty much every government in history. As usual, it’s best to refer to Christ’s words in the gospels when you’re trying to understand his teachings. He preached nonviolent resistance, turning the other cheek, forbade oath-taking. He did not say capital punishment is cool.
IncreasePosts 2y ago
Why did Jesus go into the temple and blow their shit up? Shouldn't he have forgiven the money changers and dove sellers?
zemo 2y ago
Christian is an umbrella term that describes many differing sets of beliefs. This is an oversimplification but Protestants for example believe in Sola Fide, the believe that salvation comes from faith alone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide), whereas Catholics believe that salvation requires "good works", the sort of thing you're likely thinking of. So ... different groups hold differing sets of beliefs with regards to what loving your neighbor means and what is expected behavior. This is a huge oversimplification, the "Salvation in Christianity" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_in_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_in_Christianity) and "Good Works" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_works) pages can help orient (or disorient) you.
- kergonath 2y ago
  > This is an oversimplification but Protestants for example believe in Sola Fide, the believe that salvation comes from faith alone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide), whereas Catholics believe that salvation requires "good works", the sort of thing you're likely thinking of “Protestants” are not a monolith and can have very different ideas. And no, I was not thinking of good works, it’s more general than that. The New Testament is all about being merciful, letting go of hate and not seeking retribution. How we are supposed to act on those ideals is not always clear, but that is a recurring theme in the foundational book of all Christian denominations (the big ones anyway). Anyway, that was mostly rhetorical. The actual reason is that religion is just a way of making a point without having to support it, the ultimate appeal to authority. These people are happy claiming that Jesus loves people, except for some scapegoats, whom he hates. It’s pathetic, really. I have a lot of respect for people who actually live in accordance with their principles, even if I don’t agree with them. None of the Christian I know who are like that support the death penalty.
HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
Lot's of people calling themselves Christian support Trump. I don't think you can deduce much about someone's character just because they go to church or call themselves religious.
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  I sure can; either you really believe it which means you must be quite deluded or you pretend to believe it (and cherry pick what and where you bring it up), in which case you are a grifter. Both I don't want to spend time with.

Being Christian is about forgiving and loving your neighbours, isn’t it?

edm0nd 2y ago

I dont think so really. The Crusades would have never happened if that were true.

pirate787 2y ago
The Crusades were a valid strategic response to the rise of Islam and the Islamic conquest of Byzantium and the Christian middle east.
ImJamal 2y ago
The crusades (at least the earlir ones) were primarily about protecting Christians who were being attacked and having their land taken by Muslims.

swat535 2y ago

Yes however in Christian theology it's both forgiveness _and_ repentance (which requires a penance), thus it doesn't mean you are free of consequences just because you have been forgiven. Additionally, loving your neighbour means calling on God's mercy which is willing the Good of the other (the definition of "what is good?" is answered differently in Christianity). Finally, not everyone is your neighbour (Jesus also acknowledged his enemies in Luke 19:27).

giraffe_lady 2y ago
"Your enemies are still your neighbors" is entirely consistent with those statements and in fact was how it was understood by the consensus mainstream of christianity until very recently, and is still how it is understood in most variants other than american protestantism.
kergonath 2y ago
> Yes however in Christian theology it's both forgiveness _and_ repentance (which requires a penance), thus it doesn't mean you are free of consequences just because you have been forgiven. Indeed, but for this you need to let the person in question time to realise their errors and repent, which is impossible if you kill them. > Additionally, loving your neighbour means calling on God's mercy which is willing the Good of the other (the definition of "what is good?" is answered differently in Christianity). Calling on God’s mercy does not imply playing god ourselves and disposing of the lives of others. > Finally, not everyone is your neighbour (Jesus also acknowledged his enemies in Luke 19:27). It is not really relevant in this case, though. Murderers can be Christian as well and accept his “reign”. But yeah I take your point: the bible has a lot of inconsistencies.

subsaharancoder 2y ago

I love my children and I forgive them when they do wrong, but there's always consequences for actions.

tristan957 2y ago
Nobody here is saying there shouldn't be consequences. Instead we are saying that every single person should have the right to seek forgiveness from their creator(s). If you execute someone before they have have made things right (or not), you are playing the role of God.
- subsaharancoder 2y ago
  Everyone does have the right to seek forgiveness from God, and He does forgive "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=1+John+1%3A9 https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=1+John+1%3A9, but in the same breath human beings are subject to government and the rules that go with it because God has given that authority "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God." https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=Romans+13%3A1 https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=Romans+13%3A1 If one willingly takes the life of an innocent human being with full knowledge that by that action they forfeit the right to live then it's a fitting consequence. “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed,For in the image of God He made man." https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=Genesis+9%3A6 https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=Genesis+9%3A6
  - gen220 2y ago
    I don’t know if I would quote from completely distinct sections of the Bible and use the phrase “in the same breath”. Romans 13:1-7 is a controversial section of Paul’s letters, because it implicitly contradicts the teachings of Christ if you stop in verse 1. If you look at the whole context of the passage, he seems to be placing conditions on verse 1 that would exclude pretty much every government in history. As usual, it’s best to refer to Christ’s words in the gospels when you’re trying to understand his teachings. He preached nonviolent resistance, turning the other cheek, forbade oath-taking. He did not say capital punishment is cool.

IncreasePosts 2y ago

Why did Jesus go into the temple and blow their shit up? Shouldn't he have forgiven the money changers and dove sellers?

zemo 2y ago

Christian is an umbrella term that describes many differing sets of beliefs. This is an oversimplification but Protestants for example believe in Sola Fide, the believe that salvation comes from faith alone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide), whereas Catholics believe that salvation requires "good works", the sort of thing you're likely thinking of. So ... different groups hold differing sets of beliefs with regards to what loving your neighbor means and what is expected behavior. This is a huge oversimplification, the "Salvation in Christianity" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_in_Christianity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation_in_Christianity) and "Good Works" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_works) pages can help orient (or disorient) you.

kergonath 2y ago
> This is an oversimplification but Protestants for example believe in Sola Fide, the believe that salvation comes from faith alone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide), whereas Catholics believe that salvation requires "good works", the sort of thing you're likely thinking of “Protestants” are not a monolith and can have very different ideas. And no, I was not thinking of good works, it’s more general than that. The New Testament is all about being merciful, letting go of hate and not seeking retribution. How we are supposed to act on those ideals is not always clear, but that is a recurring theme in the foundational book of all Christian denominations (the big ones anyway). Anyway, that was mostly rhetorical. The actual reason is that religion is just a way of making a point without having to support it, the ultimate appeal to authority. These people are happy claiming that Jesus loves people, except for some scapegoats, whom he hates. It’s pathetic, really. I have a lot of respect for people who actually live in accordance with their principles, even if I don’t agree with them. None of the Christian I know who are like that support the death penalty.

HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago

Lot's of people calling themselves Christian support Trump. I don't think you can deduce much about someone's character just because they go to church or call themselves religious.

anonzzzies 2y ago
I sure can; either you really believe it which means you must be quite deluded or you pretend to believe it (and cherry pick what and where you bring it up), in which case you are a grifter. Both I don't want to spend time with.