6 ms·

They aren't really fighting it, because they never picked a winnable battle. Rather, they overextended themselves massively in a blunder akin to just throwing

They aren't really fighting it, because they never picked a winnable battle. Rather, they overextended themselves massively in a blunder akin to just throwing themselves on their enemy's sword. They decided to go all-or-nothing on uncontrolled digital lending when there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that the current laws would give them any wiggle room. And unsurprisingly, it will give them a mortal wound.

renewiltord 2y ago
Yeah, but no person who would worry about this would have made the IA in the first place. IA itself is a massive copyright suit waiting to happen. I know, I know, if you were them and had bought bitcoin at $10 you would have sold at precisely the top at $70k per and neither before nor after.
- anonymousab 2y ago
  I would agree, but IA did eventually add a mechanism for removing a site/copyrighted content entirely. If they were straight up ignoring or rejecting DMCA takedown requests, then that would be a self-immolation that is similarly pyrrhic to the uncontrolled digital lending operation.
- Apocryphon 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    Sure, but the guy who would conceive and execute on this idea was never going to be a guy who would stop there. Folks like this don’t aim at some point and then achieve it and stay there. They aim higher, land where they do, and continue to target the higher point. It’s how it is. You can tell because how many of the rest of the people who would have stopped and flown under the radar have duplicated the Archive and served it without the taint of the ebook lending? Precisely zero.
    - Apocryphon 2y ago
      Hm, what's that Carl Sagan quote, "They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." Brewster Kahle's vision for the Internet Archive as an electronic repository for human knowledge is the former. His belief that he can just blithely tussle with the entire copyright regime in such a half-cocked manner is the latter. You should not confuse folly for audacity. Especially when it might completely jeopardize the former.
      - renewiltord 2y ago
        I'll believe it when the pragmatic someone will replicate the Archive in all but ebook lending. Exactly zero of these wise men have done anything which is what I expect from those who speak who never do.
        Apocryphon 2y ago
        Slavish "the man in the arena" worship isn't particularly audacious. Unquestioning support for audacity for the sake of it speaks to lack of discernment. And to parrot a HN truism- a failure to account for survivor bias. By all means, romanticize recklessness even when it results in self-defeating catastrophe. Yet there are plenty of other worthier figures to lionize and archives to patronize- Alexandra Elbakyan and Sci-Hub, the anonymous samizdat dissidents and LibGen.
        renewiltord 2y ago
        It's not worship. It's an observation. Those who talk, say they would stop at a precise stopping point, but they never start. Those who do, almost always overshoot this precise stopping point that the talkers refer to. An IA that has the precise stopping point is possible today. But zero people have made it. This is not unique. In fact, I'll tell you what, you make it and I will dedicate my ArchiveTeam Warrior to your project instead for a year.
        2y ago
mrguyorama 2y ago
"Pick a winnable fight" means the internet archive does not exist. Copyright in the US is very clear cut. There is no fight to "win" without changing the law. That means advocacy. That sometimes means civil disobedience and getting society to fight for them. You want an internet archive? We need to reform copyright law.
- lolinder 2y ago
  The Internet Archive already pushed the boundaries and existed for long enough to make meaningful headway. They were winning the fight by picking the right battles and flying under the radar all the way up until they decided to completely overstep their mission and take on a fight that no one had any hope they would win.

renewiltord 2y ago

Yeah, but no person who would worry about this would have made the IA in the first place. IA itself is a massive copyright suit waiting to happen. I know, I know, if you were them and had bought bitcoin at $10 you would have sold at precisely the top at $70k per and neither before nor after.

anonymousab 2y ago
I would agree, but IA did eventually add a mechanism for removing a site/copyrighted content entirely. If they were straight up ignoring or rejecting DMCA takedown requests, then that would be a self-immolation that is similarly pyrrhic to the uncontrolled digital lending operation.
Apocryphon 2y ago
[flagged]
- renewiltord 2y ago
  Sure, but the guy who would conceive and execute on this idea was never going to be a guy who would stop there. Folks like this don’t aim at some point and then achieve it and stay there. They aim higher, land where they do, and continue to target the higher point. It’s how it is. You can tell because how many of the rest of the people who would have stopped and flown under the radar have duplicated the Archive and served it without the taint of the ebook lending? Precisely zero.
  - Apocryphon 2y ago
    Hm, what's that Carl Sagan quote, "They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." Brewster Kahle's vision for the Internet Archive as an electronic repository for human knowledge is the former. His belief that he can just blithely tussle with the entire copyright regime in such a half-cocked manner is the latter. You should not confuse folly for audacity. Especially when it might completely jeopardize the former.
    - renewiltord 2y ago
      I'll believe it when the pragmatic someone will replicate the Archive in all but ebook lending. Exactly zero of these wise men have done anything which is what I expect from those who speak who never do.
      - Apocryphon 2y ago
        Slavish "the man in the arena" worship isn't particularly audacious. Unquestioning support for audacity for the sake of it speaks to lack of discernment. And to parrot a HN truism- a failure to account for survivor bias. By all means, romanticize recklessness even when it results in self-defeating catastrophe. Yet there are plenty of other worthier figures to lionize and archives to patronize- Alexandra Elbakyan and Sci-Hub, the anonymous samizdat dissidents and LibGen.
        renewiltord 2y ago
        It's not worship. It's an observation. Those who talk, say they would stop at a precise stopping point, but they never start. Those who do, almost always overshoot this precise stopping point that the talkers refer to. An IA that has the precise stopping point is possible today. But zero people have made it. This is not unique. In fact, I'll tell you what, you make it and I will dedicate my ArchiveTeam Warrior to your project instead for a year.
        2y ago

mrguyorama 2y ago

"Pick a winnable fight" means the internet archive does not exist. Copyright in the US is very clear cut. There is no fight to "win" without changing the law. That means advocacy. That sometimes means civil disobedience and getting society to fight for them. You want an internet archive? We need to reform copyright law.

lolinder 2y ago
The Internet Archive already pushed the boundaries and existed for long enough to make meaningful headway. They were winning the fight by picking the right battles and flying under the radar all the way up until they decided to completely overstep their mission and take on a fight that no one had any hope they would win.