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> I can trust Jonathan Given the clear bias in the writing and the coverage, how do you reconcile this? LWN isn't a news site staffed with reporters any more t

by rc00 2y ago

> I can trust Jonathan Given the clear bias in the writing and the coverage, how do you reconcile this? LWN isn't a news site staffed with reporters any more than Fox News is and it is much more closely defined by being a personal infoblog these days. Phoronix, Linuxiac, and DistroWatch are a few examples closer to actual news without trying to lead the reader. The Register, even with snark, is more representative of a news site these days. I used to be a fan of Jonathan and LWN but in recent times, he seems less interested in being a reporter and more interested in being a Rust evangelist. That isn't a source I can trust.

greatquux 2y ago
Jonathan is eminently reasonable. He just wants everyone to get along. He’s no more an evangelist for Rust than Linus is, who, you'll recall, is trying to make it work also.
- rc00 2y ago
  That is factually misleading. Look at LWN's coverage since the recent controversy over a Rust developer quitting the project: 1. Rust-for-Linux developer Wedson Almeida Filho drops out - https://lwn.net/Articles/987635/ https://lwn.net/Articles/987635/ 2. Airlie: On Rust, Linux, developers, maintainers - https://lwn.net/Articles/987849/ https://lwn.net/Articles/987849/ LWN never once mentioned any blogs or opinions from kernel developers or otherwise unless they were in support of Rust. There has also never been an article highlighting the very real challenges not only with Rust but also the attempt to integrate it into the Linux kernel project. Scroll the home page for recent articles and it's pretty evident where the bias exists. Meanwhile, The Register[3] cited at least Drew DeVault among others: 3. https://www.theregister.com/2024/09/02/rust_for_linux_maintainer_steps_down/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/09/02/rust_for_linux_mainta... Yes, The Register wrote a more balanced article on the topic than LWN. > He’s no more an evangelist for Rust than Linus is Linus does not have a personal website where he is only publishing positive articles about Rust.
  - dralley 2y ago
    >Meanwhile, The Register[3] cited at least Drew DeVault among others: Drew DeVault is not anti-Rust-in-the-linux-kernel.
    - rc00 2y ago
      > Veteran developer Drew DeVault, founder and CEO of SourceHut and a critic of Rust in the Linux kernel > I am known to be a bit of a polemic when it comes to Rust > Rust will eventually fail to the “jack of all trades, master of none” problem that C++ has. Wise languages designers start small and stay small. Wise systems programmers extend this philosophy to designing entire systems, and Rust is probably not going to be invited. I understand that many people, particularly those already enamored with Rust, won’t agree with much of this article. But now you know why we are still writing C, and hopefully you’ll stop bloody bothering us about it. Do you have anything to support your statement?
  - mustache_kimono 2y ago
    > LWN never once mentioned any blogs or opinions from kernel developers or otherwise unless they were in support of Rust. Others please visit the links and see for yourself. It's bare coverage. A few sentences when something notable happens. What do they say? Re: 1, it's a few nice sentences about Wedson after he leaves. Re: 2, it's one sentence and quote from a kernel dev. Moreover, are we seriously trying to work the refs, as if LWN is NBC or Fox News, in this dispute? If you know of something interesting said be anti-Rust persons within the Linux kernel community, just share it with us. No reason it needs to be intermediated by LWN. > Meanwhile, The Register[3] cited at least Drew DeVault among others: AFAIK Drew Devault isn't a Linux kernel developer? And re: 3, this blog post is like Drew's other blog posts. It is, excuse me, unthoughtful and incurious. Like all of Drew's writing, it is an Epistemic Closure Express to "Another Drew hobby horse". This time it was "Drew doesn't like Rust again." Is it any wonder someone else didn't want to include his bad writing for what?... Balance? I think it's perfectly reasonable to have doubts about Rust in the Linux kernel. I'm sure there are many well qualified devs with interesting, learned views on the subject. Drew is not a such a person. I have written reams about how Drew makes poor arguments. If you're curious, or don't think my case is well made here, you can my other comments re: Drew: [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404644 [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41409049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41409049
saagarjha 2y ago
I don't treat LWN as a news site. I read it as Jonathan's summary of what is going on. He does a good job at summarizing. If I asked a friend to give that summary too I would treat it like that, or maybe I would value it as if I had summarized it myself. There is always a need to understand what biases went into this kind of digest and that does not go away regardless of who is writing it. My point is that Jonathan might forget to include, say, some Rust person or a kernel developer but he isn't going to write something like "kernel developers debate whether security is important; Rust mentioned" like an LLM might. I get the information I want and nothing more.

by rc00 2y ago

greatquux 2y ago

Jonathan is eminently reasonable. He just wants everyone to get along. He’s no more an evangelist for Rust than Linus is, who, you'll recall, is trying to make it work also.

rc00 2y ago
That is factually misleading. Look at LWN's coverage since the recent controversy over a Rust developer quitting the project: 1. Rust-for-Linux developer Wedson Almeida Filho drops out - https://lwn.net/Articles/987635/ https://lwn.net/Articles/987635/ 2. Airlie: On Rust, Linux, developers, maintainers - https://lwn.net/Articles/987849/ https://lwn.net/Articles/987849/ LWN never once mentioned any blogs or opinions from kernel developers or otherwise unless they were in support of Rust. There has also never been an article highlighting the very real challenges not only with Rust but also the attempt to integrate it into the Linux kernel project. Scroll the home page for recent articles and it's pretty evident where the bias exists. Meanwhile, The Register[3] cited at least Drew DeVault among others: 3. https://www.theregister.com/2024/09/02/rust_for_linux_maintainer_steps_down/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/09/02/rust_for_linux_mainta... Yes, The Register wrote a more balanced article on the topic than LWN. > He’s no more an evangelist for Rust than Linus is Linus does not have a personal website where he is only publishing positive articles about Rust.
- dralley 2y ago
  >Meanwhile, The Register[3] cited at least Drew DeVault among others: Drew DeVault is not anti-Rust-in-the-linux-kernel.
  - rc00 2y ago
    > Veteran developer Drew DeVault, founder and CEO of SourceHut and a critic of Rust in the Linux kernel > I am known to be a bit of a polemic when it comes to Rust > Rust will eventually fail to the “jack of all trades, master of none” problem that C++ has. Wise languages designers start small and stay small. Wise systems programmers extend this philosophy to designing entire systems, and Rust is probably not going to be invited. I understand that many people, particularly those already enamored with Rust, won’t agree with much of this article. But now you know why we are still writing C, and hopefully you’ll stop bloody bothering us about it. Do you have anything to support your statement?
- mustache_kimono 2y ago
  > LWN never once mentioned any blogs or opinions from kernel developers or otherwise unless they were in support of Rust. Others please visit the links and see for yourself. It's bare coverage. A few sentences when something notable happens. What do they say? Re: 1, it's a few nice sentences about Wedson after he leaves. Re: 2, it's one sentence and quote from a kernel dev. Moreover, are we seriously trying to work the refs, as if LWN is NBC or Fox News, in this dispute? If you know of something interesting said be anti-Rust persons within the Linux kernel community, just share it with us. No reason it needs to be intermediated by LWN. > Meanwhile, The Register[3] cited at least Drew DeVault among others: AFAIK Drew Devault isn't a Linux kernel developer? And re: 3, this blog post is like Drew's other blog posts. It is, excuse me, unthoughtful and incurious. Like all of Drew's writing, it is an Epistemic Closure Express to "Another Drew hobby horse". This time it was "Drew doesn't like Rust again." Is it any wonder someone else didn't want to include his bad writing for what?... Balance? I think it's perfectly reasonable to have doubts about Rust in the Linux kernel. I'm sure there are many well qualified devs with interesting, learned views on the subject. Drew is not a such a person. I have written reams about how Drew makes poor arguments. If you're curious, or don't think my case is well made here, you can my other comments re: Drew: [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41404644 [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41409049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41409049

saagarjha 2y ago

I don't treat LWN as a news site. I read it as Jonathan's summary of what is going on. He does a good job at summarizing. If I asked a friend to give that summary too I would treat it like that, or maybe I would value it as if I had summarized it myself. There is always a need to understand what biases went into this kind of digest and that does not go away regardless of who is writing it. My point is that Jonathan might forget to include, say, some Rust person or a kernel developer but he isn't going to write something like "kernel developers debate whether security is important; Rust mentioned" like an LLM might. I get the information I want and nothing more.