4 ms·

In some places it sounds like the ONT is integrated with the router (like with DOCSIS), and being forced to use the ISP’s router is a problem. But in cases whe

In some places it sounds like the ONT is integrated with the router (like with DOCSIS), and being forced to use the ISP’s router is a problem. But in cases where the ONT just looks like a media converter and you have a separate router I really can’t see any reason for the customer to provide their own ONT. Especially given PON is a shared medium so a misbehaving ONT can affect other customers.

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
> In some places it sounds like the ONT is integrated with the router (like with DOCSIS), and being forced to use the ISP’s router is a problem. I agree, and that is a problem. The rules and regulations are different in different countries. In Austria for instance the ISP can force you to use a specific DOCSIS modem or ONT but they have to provide you with a transparent way to connect to it (bridge mode etc.). Which from where I'm standing is a good tradeoff because it gives the ISP the flexibility to do mass migrations without having to consider very old deployed infrastructure. With PON I think it doesn't matter all _that_ much but for instance people running ancient DOCSIS modems and limited frequency availability has been a massive pain for people stuck with DOCSIS infrastructure that want more upstream and can't.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >but they have to provide you with a transparent way to connect to it Can you provide the source for that? Because the Wifi 6 enabled Modem from Magenta doesn't support bridge mode.
  - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
    > Can you provide the source for that? There has not been an official ruling, but that was not necessary because there is a soft commitment by ISPs to provide bridge mode which was enough for the RTR: https://www.rtr.at/TKP/was_wir_tun/telekommunikation/konsumentenservice/information/informationen_fuer_konsumenten/nap.de.html https://www.rtr.at/TKP/was_wir_tun/telekommunikation/konsume... But they are very explicit: > Gleichzeitig gibt es eine gesetzlich garantierte Endgerätefreiheit (Art. 3 Abs. 1 TSM-VO). Auf Grund dieser haben alle Nutzer:innen das Recht, einen Router ihrer Wahl zu verwenden. Stellt der Anbieter einen Router mit integriertem Modem zur Verfügung, muss es möglich sein, diesen Router in den sogenannten "Brigde-Modus" zu schalten. > Because the Wifi 6 enabled Modem from Magenta doesn't support bridge mode. It does. Call customer support and they enable it for you. It turns into a dumb modem afterwards behind which you need to put your own infrastructure. It's also mentioned on their FAQ: https://www.magenta.at/faq/entry/~technische-anfrage~kabelinternet~installation/~routerwahl~master https://www.magenta.at/faq/entry/~technische-anfrage~kabelin...
- kilburn 2y ago
  This is the same in Spain: ISP-provided ont/router combos are fine but they must have a bridge mode (you may have to call support to enable it).
- abofh 2y ago
  So at least in Portugal, my ISP gives me their device, it has a bridge mode, but it also serves as their wifi access point network (think Xfinity wifi) -- which I don't object to except that their wifi can't be disabled and their signal interferes with my wifi access points. I want a dumb gpon sfp not because they won't give me a bridge, but because their bridge makes too much noise.
  - tlavoie 2y ago
    I have to wonder, why can't their wi-fi be disabled? Is it one of those scenarios where it is being used to support other ISP customers in your area? My ISP (note: also owned by my employer) doesn't have this, so the modem I've got is theirs, but I can disable wi-fi. I do, too, so the only client on this thing is my firewall. I assume that everything past my firewall could potentially be hostile.
Aaron2222 2y ago
> But in cases where the ONT just looks like a media converter and you have a separate router That's how it works in New Zealand, but we take it a step further. The GPON/XGS-PON fibre network is run by a separate company[0] from the ISPs (and the company running the fibre network is prohibited from providing internet services[1]). So the ONT just functions as a media converter[2], and all our ISPs deliver internet over the same fibre network. This decoupling between the fibre network provider and ISP means you can change ISPs without any swapping of ONTs or repatching of fibre[3][4] (in fact, the process can be entirely automated, switching to some ISPs can take effect within an hour or two of placing the order). That and most ISPs allow bringing your own router (as there's no monopoly in the ISP space). [0]: The NZ Government contracted four companies to build, own, and run fibre networks (three being new companies co-owned by local lines companies and the government to serving their local area, with the rest of the country being served by Chorus, the company that owns the country's copper network). These fibre companies are heavily regulated (including how much they can charge ISPs). [1]: In fact, this requirement resulted in Telecom (the company that owned our copper network and who was one of the companies that provided phone and internet service to consumers) being split up, with Chorus being spun off, owning the copper network and owning the fibre network for the majority of the country. [2]: Chorus did start deploying ONTs with a built-in router/AP a while back. They did offer this to ISPs to use, but uptake was very low, so it's since been discontinued. [3]: I don't know how it works over in European countries where ISPs run their own fibre networks when switching ISPs, I assume they have to either install their own fibre line into the premises or the existing fibre is repatched to their network? [4]: The fibre companies are required to offer use of their fibre network directly to ISPs, with the ISPs PON network running in parallel to the fibre company's, with the ISP providing their own fibre splitters and ONTs (which would be run on a second fibre line that each premises already has) and running their own OLTs. I believe this requirement still exists, but no-one ever took them up on it.
- ensignavenger 2y ago
  I am curious about this model. How well is this working in practice? How many ISPs do you have to choose from, and how do they differentiate? How close to wholesale are the retail prices?
jeroenhd 2y ago
In theory the ONT can act like a listening device. They're also often Linux or BSD devices that can get hacked. If you're paranoid, you may want to run an ONT that you control, just in case. I doubt it's something that matters to a lot of people, but even if it only matters to some, it shouldn't be made impossible for those that want to. RE: misbehaving hardware: the same is very much true for cable internet and there are plenty of countries where people hook up their own modem without any trouble. If someone wanted to mess with the fiber network they could just disconnect the ONT and shine a laser pointer down there. All off-the-shelf devices are built to just work and follow the necessary standards, because there's nothing to be gained by messing with the PON network like that.
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  > In theory the ONT can act like a listening device Sure, but so can the other endpoint. Even many AON installations these days are just hidden XPS-PON and similar, you just never see the ONT. (See a lot of ISPs in Switzerland)
  - bobmcnamara 2y ago
    And so can all the other endpoints if they're not encrypting downstream traffic
- worewood 2y ago
  In the year 2024 it is prudent to think of everything that leaves the premises as potentially listened upon. That's why we've got HTTPS an DoT/DoH so widespread these days
  - lxgr 2y ago
    There’s still a huge privacy impact if anyone can listen to your traffic (since hostnames are almost always plaintext due to SNI).
woodrowbarlow 2y ago
as long as the ISP isn't charging a rental fee for the ONT.
bobmcnamara 2y ago
I replaced my Google fiber ONT by cloning the network parameters into a cheap SFP one because the Google supplied one only supports gigabit Ethernet but uses 2.5/1.25gbit optics. The upgrade reduced latency a small, but measurable amount, and improved my NTP jitter.
cmsj 2y ago
Definitely agree. The smart place to demarcate the connection is the point at which a device does DHCP/SLAAC to get whatever IPs the ISP assigns the customer.

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago

> In some places it sounds like the ONT is integrated with the router (like with DOCSIS), and being forced to use the ISP’s router is a problem. I agree, and that is a problem. The rules and regulations are different in different countries. In Austria for instance the ISP can force you to use a specific DOCSIS modem or ONT but they have to provide you with a transparent way to connect to it (bridge mode etc.). Which from where I'm standing is a good tradeoff because it gives the ISP the flexibility to do mass migrations without having to consider very old deployed infrastructure. With PON I think it doesn't matter all _that_ much but for instance people running ancient DOCSIS modems and limited frequency availability has been a massive pain for people stuck with DOCSIS infrastructure that want more upstream and can't.

Rinzler89 2y ago
>but they have to provide you with a transparent way to connect to it Can you provide the source for that? Because the Wifi 6 enabled Modem from Magenta doesn't support bridge mode.
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  > Can you provide the source for that? There has not been an official ruling, but that was not necessary because there is a soft commitment by ISPs to provide bridge mode which was enough for the RTR: https://www.rtr.at/TKP/was_wir_tun/telekommunikation/konsumentenservice/information/informationen_fuer_konsumenten/nap.de.html https://www.rtr.at/TKP/was_wir_tun/telekommunikation/konsume... But they are very explicit: > Gleichzeitig gibt es eine gesetzlich garantierte Endgerätefreiheit (Art. 3 Abs. 1 TSM-VO). Auf Grund dieser haben alle Nutzer:innen das Recht, einen Router ihrer Wahl zu verwenden. Stellt der Anbieter einen Router mit integriertem Modem zur Verfügung, muss es möglich sein, diesen Router in den sogenannten "Brigde-Modus" zu schalten. > Because the Wifi 6 enabled Modem from Magenta doesn't support bridge mode. It does. Call customer support and they enable it for you. It turns into a dumb modem afterwards behind which you need to put your own infrastructure. It's also mentioned on their FAQ: https://www.magenta.at/faq/entry/~technische-anfrage~kabelinternet~installation/~routerwahl~master https://www.magenta.at/faq/entry/~technische-anfrage~kabelin...
kilburn 2y ago
This is the same in Spain: ISP-provided ont/router combos are fine but they must have a bridge mode (you may have to call support to enable it).
abofh 2y ago
So at least in Portugal, my ISP gives me their device, it has a bridge mode, but it also serves as their wifi access point network (think Xfinity wifi) -- which I don't object to except that their wifi can't be disabled and their signal interferes with my wifi access points. I want a dumb gpon sfp not because they won't give me a bridge, but because their bridge makes too much noise.
- tlavoie 2y ago
  I have to wonder, why can't their wi-fi be disabled? Is it one of those scenarios where it is being used to support other ISP customers in your area? My ISP (note: also owned by my employer) doesn't have this, so the modem I've got is theirs, but I can disable wi-fi. I do, too, so the only client on this thing is my firewall. I assume that everything past my firewall could potentially be hostile.

Aaron2222 2y ago

> But in cases where the ONT just looks like a media converter and you have a separate router That's how it works in New Zealand, but we take it a step further. The GPON/XGS-PON fibre network is run by a separate company[0] from the ISPs (and the company running the fibre network is prohibited from providing internet services[1]). So the ONT just functions as a media converter[2], and all our ISPs deliver internet over the same fibre network. This decoupling between the fibre network provider and ISP means you can change ISPs without any swapping of ONTs or repatching of fibre[3][4] (in fact, the process can be entirely automated, switching to some ISPs can take effect within an hour or two of placing the order). That and most ISPs allow bringing your own router (as there's no monopoly in the ISP space). [0]: The NZ Government contracted four companies to build, own, and run fibre networks (three being new companies co-owned by local lines companies and the government to serving their local area, with the rest of the country being served by Chorus, the company that owns the country's copper network). These fibre companies are heavily regulated (including how much they can charge ISPs). [1]: In fact, this requirement resulted in Telecom (the company that owned our copper network and who was one of the companies that provided phone and internet service to consumers) being split up, with Chorus being spun off, owning the copper network and owning the fibre network for the majority of the country. [2]: Chorus did start deploying ONTs with a built-in router/AP a while back. They did offer this to ISPs to use, but uptake was very low, so it's since been discontinued. [3]: I don't know how it works over in European countries where ISPs run their own fibre networks when switching ISPs, I assume they have to either install their own fibre line into the premises or the existing fibre is repatched to their network? [4]: The fibre companies are required to offer use of their fibre network directly to ISPs, with the ISPs PON network running in parallel to the fibre company's, with the ISP providing their own fibre splitters and ONTs (which would be run on a second fibre line that each premises already has) and running their own OLTs. I believe this requirement still exists, but no-one ever took them up on it.

ensignavenger 2y ago
I am curious about this model. How well is this working in practice? How many ISPs do you have to choose from, and how do they differentiate? How close to wholesale are the retail prices?

jeroenhd 2y ago

In theory the ONT can act like a listening device. They're also often Linux or BSD devices that can get hacked. If you're paranoid, you may want to run an ONT that you control, just in case. I doubt it's something that matters to a lot of people, but even if it only matters to some, it shouldn't be made impossible for those that want to. RE: misbehaving hardware: the same is very much true for cable internet and there are plenty of countries where people hook up their own modem without any trouble. If someone wanted to mess with the fiber network they could just disconnect the ONT and shine a laser pointer down there. All off-the-shelf devices are built to just work and follow the necessary standards, because there's nothing to be gained by messing with the PON network like that.

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
> In theory the ONT can act like a listening device Sure, but so can the other endpoint. Even many AON installations these days are just hidden XPS-PON and similar, you just never see the ONT. (See a lot of ISPs in Switzerland)
- bobmcnamara 2y ago
  And so can all the other endpoints if they're not encrypting downstream traffic
worewood 2y ago
In the year 2024 it is prudent to think of everything that leaves the premises as potentially listened upon. That's why we've got HTTPS an DoT/DoH so widespread these days
- lxgr 2y ago
  There’s still a huge privacy impact if anyone can listen to your traffic (since hostnames are almost always plaintext due to SNI).

woodrowbarlow 2y ago

as long as the ISP isn't charging a rental fee for the ONT.

bobmcnamara 2y ago

I replaced my Google fiber ONT by cloning the network parameters into a cheap SFP one because the Google supplied one only supports gigabit Ethernet but uses 2.5/1.25gbit optics. The upgrade reduced latency a small, but measurable amount, and improved my NTP jitter.

cmsj 2y ago

Definitely agree. The smart place to demarcate the connection is the point at which a device does DHCP/SLAAC to get whatever IPs the ISP assigns the customer.