3 ms·

And all this where the needed regulation is so simple: „one can cancel any subscription the same way it was started“. Started by clicking on a website? There m

by pintxo 2y ago

And all this where the needed regulation is so simple: „one can cancel any subscription the same way it was started“. Started by clicking on a website? There must be an unsubscribe button. Sold at my doorstep? Next time your sales people try to sell me something, I can cancel with them. But I could also just go to any office/branch/shop and tell whoever works there that I hereby unsubscribe. You get the idea.

izacus 2y ago
> Sold at my doorstep? Next time your sales people try to sell me something, I can cancel with them. But I could also just go to any office/branch/shop and tell whoever works there that I hereby unsubscribe. Um, why though? If you bought it at the doorstep, you'll need to wait for 12 months before we come to your doorstep, whats this about "branches and shops"? You said "the same way" didn't you? ;)
- jstanley 2y ago
  If they sold it at your doorstep I don't see why they shouldn't cancel it at theirs.
falcor84 2y ago
I'll one up you on that: every ecommerce company that ships to your door should also allow you to return the product via simple courier pick-up, with no more clicks required than the purchase.
- pintxo 2y ago
  Oh, didn’t mention that because we (almost) have that here in Germany already ;-)
AStonesThrow 2y ago
The trouble arises later on. Say five years down the road, or more. You've enjoyed this service but time to cut back. You forgot how you signed up. The website's different. The company was sold three times and changed domains. Worse, you're dead or incapacitated, and a loved one is trying to do this on your behalf. What needs to happen is a clear path working backwards from the bank charges to unsub. They're supposed to cram in enough info in the transaction line, but how many times is it a third-party with an all-zero phone number? Even worse are "discreet" or sensitive services such as porn, that are necessarily circumspect about the transaction details. That's why I really appreciate middlemen like PayPal. They've got a fantastic dashboard for recurring payments that puts control back in our hands (usually) and lets you simply override the vendor's autopay arrangement.
- pintxo 2y ago
  I am with you that it would be even better if any financial transaction rooted in a subscription should come with a revokation token + url to unsubscribe. But this sounds like even harder to get, so I’ll settle for the more simple version described above in the meantime.
  - AStonesThrow 2y ago
    Here's a fundamental dialectic tension that makes unsubscribing arduous: Companies are literally banking on long-term subscriptions for their bottom line. If a customer has made a commitment to a gym or a service for 12 months, or 3 years, or perpetuity, then that company is also putting the customer's future payments into their budget projections. Now they DEPEND ON YOU for solvency! So you can see that a company has a right to send you to retention or make overtures before you outright stop paying them. And you see why so many things have gone to AutoPay where the company extracts cash from your account, rather than waiting on you to write them a check, and doing the dance of late notices, late fees, collection agencies. They simply can't be a creditor to deadbeat customers anymore. So it behooves us to think long-and-hard before that free trial, or committing to a subscription we probably won't use or want soon. To think about the future difficulty of canceling rather than the cool perks we get today. To think about passing this info on to our loved ones or PoA who'll need to deal with it at some point. Because it's not merely about the consumer. It's about businesses being able to plan for their own future, and being able to pay their own employees, and keep their lights on. They depend on those subscriptions from us, because they represent loyalty and commitment.
    - pintxo 2y ago
      > They depend on those subscriptions from us, because they represent loyalty and commitment. A subscription that only continues to exist because the unsubscribe process is harder than it needs to be can never represent loyality and commitment, as both require an act of free will.
      - AStonesThrow 2y ago

by pintxo 2y ago

izacus 2y ago

> Sold at my doorstep? Next time your sales people try to sell me something, I can cancel with them. But I could also just go to any office/branch/shop and tell whoever works there that I hereby unsubscribe. Um, why though? If you bought it at the doorstep, you'll need to wait for 12 months before we come to your doorstep, whats this about "branches and shops"? You said "the same way" didn't you? ;)

jstanley 2y ago
If they sold it at your doorstep I don't see why they shouldn't cancel it at theirs.

falcor84 2y ago

I'll one up you on that: every ecommerce company that ships to your door should also allow you to return the product via simple courier pick-up, with no more clicks required than the purchase.

pintxo 2y ago
Oh, didn’t mention that because we (almost) have that here in Germany already ;-)

AStonesThrow 2y ago

The trouble arises later on. Say five years down the road, or more. You've enjoyed this service but time to cut back. You forgot how you signed up. The website's different. The company was sold three times and changed domains. Worse, you're dead or incapacitated, and a loved one is trying to do this on your behalf. What needs to happen is a clear path working backwards from the bank charges to unsub. They're supposed to cram in enough info in the transaction line, but how many times is it a third-party with an all-zero phone number? Even worse are "discreet" or sensitive services such as porn, that are necessarily circumspect about the transaction details. That's why I really appreciate middlemen like PayPal. They've got a fantastic dashboard for recurring payments that puts control back in our hands (usually) and lets you simply override the vendor's autopay arrangement.

pintxo 2y ago
I am with you that it would be even better if any financial transaction rooted in a subscription should come with a revokation token + url to unsubscribe. But this sounds like even harder to get, so I’ll settle for the more simple version described above in the meantime.
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  Here's a fundamental dialectic tension that makes unsubscribing arduous: Companies are literally banking on long-term subscriptions for their bottom line. If a customer has made a commitment to a gym or a service for 12 months, or 3 years, or perpetuity, then that company is also putting the customer's future payments into their budget projections. Now they DEPEND ON YOU for solvency! So you can see that a company has a right to send you to retention or make overtures before you outright stop paying them. And you see why so many things have gone to AutoPay where the company extracts cash from your account, rather than waiting on you to write them a check, and doing the dance of late notices, late fees, collection agencies. They simply can't be a creditor to deadbeat customers anymore. So it behooves us to think long-and-hard before that free trial, or committing to a subscription we probably won't use or want soon. To think about the future difficulty of canceling rather than the cool perks we get today. To think about passing this info on to our loved ones or PoA who'll need to deal with it at some point. Because it's not merely about the consumer. It's about businesses being able to plan for their own future, and being able to pay their own employees, and keep their lights on. They depend on those subscriptions from us, because they represent loyalty and commitment.
  - pintxo 2y ago
    > They depend on those subscriptions from us, because they represent loyalty and commitment. A subscription that only continues to exist because the unsubscribe process is harder than it needs to be can never represent loyality and commitment, as both require an act of free will.
    - AStonesThrow 2y ago