5 ms·

BTW: in the EU there is movement towards mandating ISPs allow BYOD, including fibre ONTs. https://fsfe.org/activities/routers/ https://fsfe.org/activities/rout

by pabs3 2y ago

BTW: in the EU there is movement towards mandating ISPs allow BYOD, including fibre ONTs. https://fsfe.org/activities/routers/ https://fsfe.org/activities/routers/

vlabakje90 2y ago
Mandatory in the Netherlands, since last year.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- t0mas88 2y ago
  And as a result for example KPN (one of the largest fiber ISPs) has a document to tell you what to connect and with which specs: https://assets.ctfassets.net/zuadwp3l2xby/2Yp0HtLJPKBUX5mqr3l23a/936f91d56ff916c1f8f5c81d195bcd4f/20222263_KPN_Internet_Glasvezel_Specificaties_v20230123.pdf https://assets.ctfassets.net/zuadwp3l2xby/2Yp0HtLJPKBUX5mqr3... Some years ago there was only unofficial documentation even on the parts behind the ONT, like which VLAN carries internet and which one is IPTV etc. Now it's all officially documented and you can run your own modem, router and firewall if you want. I've left their ONT in place and plugged it directly into a Linux box that does the rest. Gives me more flexibility on things like IPv6 and easier to host local services without port forwarding through their modem.
  - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
    Do you know how this works contract wise? When you get network are you guaranteed that GPON will work or can they refuse service after a certain point in time and force you to upgrade to XGS-PON (or some other standard)?
    - marceldegraaf 2y ago
      The provider can upgrade their network from GPON to XGS-PON; in fact KPN (a large Dutch provider) does this regularly, especially in areas with new housing developments.
      - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
        > The provider can upgrade their network from GPON to XGS-PON The provider can transparently run GPON and XGS-PON simultaniously because they run on different wavelengths. However unless the provider can tell all existing GPON customers to replace their infrastructure they cannot stop providing GPON. GPON -> XGS-PON is not an upgrade, it's double the infrastructure where the splitter is. So my question is quite specifically if there is a contractual way for KPN to turn off GPON and force customers to migrate, or if they are required to service both until the last GPON customer goes away on a splitter. This has been an issue with DOCSIS for in many places of the world where we are already running out of available frequency spectrum.
        t0mas88 2y ago
        Consumer contracts don't guarantee GPON support in any way. So if KPN wants to upgrade they can just send the customer a letter telling them to get an XGS-PON compatible ONT by some date. They'll probably take a bit more customer friendly approach and at least send you a free provider owned XGS-PON compatible one and a new modem. But for your own equipment you have to manage everything and make sure it complies with their published specifications.
        the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
        That sounds like a somewhat pragmatic approach. Curious to see how that plays out in practice. I presume the total number of consumers that are interested in running their own ONT is limited. In Germany the situation seems a bit different. There customer owned Fritzbox devices with integrated ONTs are very widespread making the situation for an ISP quite different when it comes to upgrades.
    - t0mas88 2y ago
      The contract does not guarantee GPON or XGS-PON. They have a tool to help you figure out what you have, but they can legally change it when they're upgrading their network. The only guarantee is that they'll give you a new provider owned ONT and router during the upgrade. But that's not very useful if you want to keep running your own equipment.
  - vrytired 2y ago
    Google translated to English: https://static.r2kba.net/file/Sharex--Uploads/ShareX/2024/09/20222263_KPN_Internet_Glasvezel_Specificaties_v20230123%20%281%29.pdf https://static.r2kba.net/file/Sharex--Uploads/ShareX/2024/09...
the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
I think it's vital that you can run your own modem but I'm not convinced that it's a good idea to force a custom ONT. An ONT is about as dumb as it gets and it's entirely transparent on the stack. The benefit with an ONT (or even DOCSIS dumb modem) managed by the ISP is that they can do fleet upgrades much quicker as they don't have to keep all old protocols running. For instance the GPON -> XGSPON upgrade that some ISPs are running right now (or DOCSIS 3 upgrade) really only works well if you can turn off the old protocol which requires swapping out all ONTs/DOCSIS modems. If customers bring their own stuff then you're stuck with these things for much longer.
- cillian64 2y ago
  In some places it sounds like the ONT is integrated with the router (like with DOCSIS), and being forced to use the ISP’s router is a problem. But in cases where the ONT just looks like a media converter and you have a separate router I really can’t see any reason for the customer to provide their own ONT. Especially given PON is a shared medium so a misbehaving ONT can affect other customers.
  - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
    > In some places it sounds like the ONT is integrated with the router (like with DOCSIS), and being forced to use the ISP’s router is a problem. I agree, and that is a problem. The rules and regulations are different in different countries. In Austria for instance the ISP can force you to use a specific DOCSIS modem or ONT but they have to provide you with a transparent way to connect to it (bridge mode etc.). Which from where I'm standing is a good tradeoff because it gives the ISP the flexibility to do mass migrations without having to consider very old deployed infrastructure. With PON I think it doesn't matter all _that_ much but for instance people running ancient DOCSIS modems and limited frequency availability has been a massive pain for people stuck with DOCSIS infrastructure that want more upstream and can't.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >but they have to provide you with a transparent way to connect to it Can you provide the source for that? Because the Wifi 6 enabled Modem from Magenta doesn't support bridge mode.
RicoElectrico 2y ago
Yeah, I'd love this. My HALNY ONT doesn't support hairpin NAT which complicates accessing stuff exposed outside from home.
xattt 2y ago
I’m counting myself lucky dealing with Bell Aliant who issue a router with an SFP stick. I’ve pulled it and stuck it into an Edgerouter X SFP. They do split their IPTV, VoIP and Internet networks onto various VLANs, but that’s about it. No weird authentication hacks like PPPoE either. Just MAC authentication and go..
Kipters 2y ago
This has been the case in Italy since 2018, but I'm OK with ISP-provided ONTs to be honest, as long as I can use my own router. The problem here is that the ISP will try to avoid giving any kind of support (even when the problem is on _their_ side) if you opt into BYOD.

by pabs3 2y ago

BTW: in the EU there is movement towards mandating ISPs allow BYOD, including fibre ONTs. https://fsfe.org/activities/routers/ https://fsfe.org/activities/routers/

vlabakje90 2y ago

Mandatory in the Netherlands, since last year.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
t0mas88 2y ago
And as a result for example KPN (one of the largest fiber ISPs) has a document to tell you what to connect and with which specs: https://assets.ctfassets.net/zuadwp3l2xby/2Yp0HtLJPKBUX5mqr3l23a/936f91d56ff916c1f8f5c81d195bcd4f/20222263_KPN_Internet_Glasvezel_Specificaties_v20230123.pdf https://assets.ctfassets.net/zuadwp3l2xby/2Yp0HtLJPKBUX5mqr3... Some years ago there was only unofficial documentation even on the parts behind the ONT, like which VLAN carries internet and which one is IPTV etc. Now it's all officially documented and you can run your own modem, router and firewall if you want. I've left their ONT in place and plugged it directly into a Linux box that does the rest. Gives me more flexibility on things like IPv6 and easier to host local services without port forwarding through their modem.
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  Do you know how this works contract wise? When you get network are you guaranteed that GPON will work or can they refuse service after a certain point in time and force you to upgrade to XGS-PON (or some other standard)?
  - marceldegraaf 2y ago
    The provider can upgrade their network from GPON to XGS-PON; in fact KPN (a large Dutch provider) does this regularly, especially in areas with new housing developments.
    - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
      > The provider can upgrade their network from GPON to XGS-PON The provider can transparently run GPON and XGS-PON simultaniously because they run on different wavelengths. However unless the provider can tell all existing GPON customers to replace their infrastructure they cannot stop providing GPON. GPON -> XGS-PON is not an upgrade, it's double the infrastructure where the splitter is. So my question is quite specifically if there is a contractual way for KPN to turn off GPON and force customers to migrate, or if they are required to service both until the last GPON customer goes away on a splitter. This has been an issue with DOCSIS for in many places of the world where we are already running out of available frequency spectrum.
      - t0mas88 2y ago
        Consumer contracts don't guarantee GPON support in any way. So if KPN wants to upgrade they can just send the customer a letter telling them to get an XGS-PON compatible ONT by some date. They'll probably take a bit more customer friendly approach and at least send you a free provider owned XGS-PON compatible one and a new modem. But for your own equipment you have to manage everything and make sure it complies with their published specifications.
        the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
        That sounds like a somewhat pragmatic approach. Curious to see how that plays out in practice. I presume the total number of consumers that are interested in running their own ONT is limited. In Germany the situation seems a bit different. There customer owned Fritzbox devices with integrated ONTs are very widespread making the situation for an ISP quite different when it comes to upgrades.
  - t0mas88 2y ago
    The contract does not guarantee GPON or XGS-PON. They have a tool to help you figure out what you have, but they can legally change it when they're upgrading their network. The only guarantee is that they'll give you a new provider owned ONT and router during the upgrade. But that's not very useful if you want to keep running your own equipment.
- vrytired 2y ago
  Google translated to English: https://static.r2kba.net/file/Sharex--Uploads/ShareX/2024/09/20222263_KPN_Internet_Glasvezel_Specificaties_v20230123%20%281%29.pdf https://static.r2kba.net/file/Sharex--Uploads/ShareX/2024/09...

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago

I think it's vital that you can run your own modem but I'm not convinced that it's a good idea to force a custom ONT. An ONT is about as dumb as it gets and it's entirely transparent on the stack. The benefit with an ONT (or even DOCSIS dumb modem) managed by the ISP is that they can do fleet upgrades much quicker as they don't have to keep all old protocols running. For instance the GPON -> XGSPON upgrade that some ISPs are running right now (or DOCSIS 3 upgrade) really only works well if you can turn off the old protocol which requires swapping out all ONTs/DOCSIS modems. If customers bring their own stuff then you're stuck with these things for much longer.

cillian64 2y ago
In some places it sounds like the ONT is integrated with the router (like with DOCSIS), and being forced to use the ISP’s router is a problem. But in cases where the ONT just looks like a media converter and you have a separate router I really can’t see any reason for the customer to provide their own ONT. Especially given PON is a shared medium so a misbehaving ONT can affect other customers.
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  > In some places it sounds like the ONT is integrated with the router (like with DOCSIS), and being forced to use the ISP’s router is a problem. I agree, and that is a problem. The rules and regulations are different in different countries. In Austria for instance the ISP can force you to use a specific DOCSIS modem or ONT but they have to provide you with a transparent way to connect to it (bridge mode etc.). Which from where I'm standing is a good tradeoff because it gives the ISP the flexibility to do mass migrations without having to consider very old deployed infrastructure. With PON I think it doesn't matter all _that_ much but for instance people running ancient DOCSIS modems and limited frequency availability has been a massive pain for people stuck with DOCSIS infrastructure that want more upstream and can't.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >but they have to provide you with a transparent way to connect to it Can you provide the source for that? Because the Wifi 6 enabled Modem from Magenta doesn't support bridge mode.

RicoElectrico 2y ago

Yeah, I'd love this. My HALNY ONT doesn't support hairpin NAT which complicates accessing stuff exposed outside from home.

xattt 2y ago

I’m counting myself lucky dealing with Bell Aliant who issue a router with an SFP stick. I’ve pulled it and stuck it into an Edgerouter X SFP. They do split their IPTV, VoIP and Internet networks onto various VLANs, but that’s about it. No weird authentication hacks like PPPoE either. Just MAC authentication and go..

Kipters 2y ago

This has been the case in Italy since 2018, but I'm OK with ISP-provided ONTs to be honest, as long as I can use my own router. The problem here is that the ISP will try to avoid giving any kind of support (even when the problem is on _their_ side) if you opt into BYOD.