3 ms·

I dont have the data you are looking for, but my take on California is that cost is largely an afterthought. regulatory pressure and regulatory costs drive up o

I dont have the data you are looking for, but my take on California is that cost is largely an afterthought. regulatory pressure and regulatory costs drive up or eliminate the alternatives, and power companies have a captive market. As a result, I'm paying $0.50/kwh with a large green component, and have no choice on the matter. My only alternative is to try and reduce my use of the grid, which also means going solar.

energy123 2y ago
There's private energy developers building multi-GW of utility scale battery storage in Texas at the moment.
_ea1k 2y ago
One of the most compelling arguments that I hear from the anti-renewables types is that they do it in California and it doesn't work. I think there's more to it than that, though. TX has seen tremendous growth in renewables, and grid pricing is excellent there from the prices that I've seen.
- energy123 2y ago
  > TX has seen tremendous growth in renewables, and grid pricing is excellent there from the prices that I've seen. Kansas and Iowa are 40-60% wind and have lower prices than the national average: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I completely agree. There is a smart way to do renewables, and then there is the moronic California way. For example requiring every new house to have enough rooftop solar. Rooftop solar is one of the highest cost sources and we already have an excess of daytime solar. It ignores basic economies of scale. It adds a huge cost to every new house in a housing crisis. I don't think it is cynical to think it was simply a handout to the rooftop solar installers.
  - rickydroll 2y ago
    IMO, Rooftop, and other dual-use solar are as important as Utility scale solar. The main advantage of rooftop solar panels is that the land can be used for both power and housing. Agrivoltaics and parking lot/garage rooftop solar are other examples of dual-use solar. Rooftop Solar + batteries (correctly done) is a geographically dispersed virtual power plant. There are almost no regulatory hurdles for installation and expansion. RTS is more resilient. One node goes down, and the rest keeps running. Economies of scale in solar only benefit utility companies. Utility-scale solar is more vulnerable to damage, and outages affect a larger area. Current utility-scale solar installations are too big and should be distributed among each community.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      I disagree with the resilience point and distribution. They costs differential is just too great (more than 10X last I checked), and the grid transmission always has to be sized to support 100% of local demand. I think the crux of it is your point that Economies of scale in solar only benefit utility companies. I largely agree with that and think the other issues flow from this. It doesnt matter if my power company is buying large scale solar for $0.03/kwh, they will figure out a way to charge me $0.50. In California, power companies are not in competition, and the government sets price controls based on a ~10% corporate profit margin. Naturally, the power company drives their opex costs as high as possible every year. The system is so broken, it is hard to see a way out. I want to try to mitigate costs by rooftop production, but the state is shifting costs from use to grid hookup fees. Hell, there has even been proposals for taxing residential rooftop production.
    - skybrian 2y ago
      A problem with rooftop solar is that it’s largely unmanaged; it generates electricity without regard to demand. But on an electrical grid, supply and demand need to be balanced all the time. If there’s too much of a mismatch then it could result in power outages (to prevent equipment from being damaged). Having unmanaged power generation and usage is okay as long as large generators (and storage) are watching real-time prices and respond appropriately. This means that rooftop solar depends on utility-scale generation to offset it. Maybe that could be changed, but we aren’t anywhere near ready, and nobody is planning on it. Is there another way? A mini-grid has the ability to “island,” which allows it to run when the grid is down. It seems promising in countries with frequent power outages. Also, homes with battery power (and optionally solar) can go off-grid for a while, which is attractive in rural areas. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-grid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-grid

energy123 2y ago

There's private energy developers building multi-GW of utility scale battery storage in Texas at the moment.

_ea1k 2y ago

One of the most compelling arguments that I hear from the anti-renewables types is that they do it in California and it doesn't work. I think there's more to it than that, though. TX has seen tremendous growth in renewables, and grid pricing is excellent there from the prices that I've seen.

energy123 2y ago
> TX has seen tremendous growth in renewables, and grid pricing is excellent there from the prices that I've seen. Kansas and Iowa are 40-60% wind and have lower prices than the national average: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...
s1artibartfast 2y ago
I completely agree. There is a smart way to do renewables, and then there is the moronic California way. For example requiring every new house to have enough rooftop solar. Rooftop solar is one of the highest cost sources and we already have an excess of daytime solar. It ignores basic economies of scale. It adds a huge cost to every new house in a housing crisis. I don't think it is cynical to think it was simply a handout to the rooftop solar installers.
- rickydroll 2y ago
  IMO, Rooftop, and other dual-use solar are as important as Utility scale solar. The main advantage of rooftop solar panels is that the land can be used for both power and housing. Agrivoltaics and parking lot/garage rooftop solar are other examples of dual-use solar. Rooftop Solar + batteries (correctly done) is a geographically dispersed virtual power plant. There are almost no regulatory hurdles for installation and expansion. RTS is more resilient. One node goes down, and the rest keeps running. Economies of scale in solar only benefit utility companies. Utility-scale solar is more vulnerable to damage, and outages affect a larger area. Current utility-scale solar installations are too big and should be distributed among each community.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I disagree with the resilience point and distribution. They costs differential is just too great (more than 10X last I checked), and the grid transmission always has to be sized to support 100% of local demand. I think the crux of it is your point that Economies of scale in solar only benefit utility companies. I largely agree with that and think the other issues flow from this. It doesnt matter if my power company is buying large scale solar for $0.03/kwh, they will figure out a way to charge me $0.50. In California, power companies are not in competition, and the government sets price controls based on a ~10% corporate profit margin. Naturally, the power company drives their opex costs as high as possible every year. The system is so broken, it is hard to see a way out. I want to try to mitigate costs by rooftop production, but the state is shifting costs from use to grid hookup fees. Hell, there has even been proposals for taxing residential rooftop production.
  - skybrian 2y ago
    A problem with rooftop solar is that it’s largely unmanaged; it generates electricity without regard to demand. But on an electrical grid, supply and demand need to be balanced all the time. If there’s too much of a mismatch then it could result in power outages (to prevent equipment from being damaged). Having unmanaged power generation and usage is okay as long as large generators (and storage) are watching real-time prices and respond appropriately. This means that rooftop solar depends on utility-scale generation to offset it. Maybe that could be changed, but we aren’t anywhere near ready, and nobody is planning on it. Is there another way? A mini-grid has the ability to “island,” which allows it to run when the grid is down. It seems promising in countries with frequent power outages. Also, homes with battery power (and optionally solar) can go off-grid for a while, which is attractive in rural areas. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-grid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-grid