5 ms·

I don't think your comment on being young and able-bodied follows. I certainly know people who can't drive due to their disabilities; I've never met someone who

by svpk 2y ago

I don't think your comment on being young and able-bodied follows. I certainly know people who can't drive due to their disabilities; I've never met someone who could drive but couldn't use some kind of personal mobility device (walker, scooter, wheelchair, etc.). Presumably medical care would be available via public transit, ambulances would be an obvious exception to a ban on cars, and your doctor's office would be in your neighborhood. I suppose if you can't stand other people then living in a community would be an issue, but the majority of people tend to enjoy being around other people. Then densities required for being car-free aren't that high regardless. I'm not really sure how such a place would be more susceptible to algorithms and bad landlords than anywhere else.

MichaelZuo 2y ago
So a full road network, big enough to access every residence, will still be required. But it'll just be 99%+ empty?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- voisin 2y ago
  I think the idea is large pedestrian only paths, interruptible in rare occasions by emergency vehicles or for moving large things (perhaps car priority during very limited hours?)
  - MichaelZuo 2y ago
    Sure the roads on average can be a lot narrower, assuming perfect coordination, but it will still be a needed pretty much in all the same places...
- drewcoo 2y ago
  Before cars, we had roads. They were not empty. A big problem with cars was that people had to stop walking on (or near!) roads.
  - randomdata 2y ago
    If you watch film of early cars, people still happily walked amongst them. The problem isn't so much with cars themselves, but with increasingly impatient people; the intensifying rat race.
    - paleotrope 2y ago
      What is a rat race? I've heard it all my life but until this moment I never questioned what it actually meant.
tharkun__ 2y ago
Not your parent here. People around is great. People around in great density tends to breed problems instead. Your parent is probably thinking density. Like lots of 3 storey plus buildings with paper thin walls and ceilings. In dense urban development. You can like people and community all you want but if that's all over the place you are gonna breed interpersonal issues. You have to be a very tolerant person to endure that. And for the record, yes, not everyone likes non family people being that close. I am OK with my neighbors doing whatever they want if I can't hear their loud bass all afternoon and night time. But if it feels like their every weekend (or worse weeknight) is happening right in my bedroom then yeah I "can't stand people".
- epolanski 2y ago
  I mean, this is easily fixed by having insulated walls, which are common in new buildings both for privacy and thermal insulation.
  - tharkun__ 2y ago
    Sorta but not really. For one, which large cities in NA have any of that? They've got buildings that are not new all over. Also, what is "new"? I've lived in buildings built in the last 10-15 years that were definitely still paper thin. Heck we have several tens of meters between us and the neighbors house and we can hear them sometimes. The other thing is for example balconies. There's not a thermal or insulated wall new building thing in the world that is gonna save you from your downstairs neighbor chain smoking on the balcony all hours of the day. You can't sit outside in the afternoon or on the weekend enjoying life. You can't sleep with the window open (fresh cool air required for proper sleep). At least because you live in a city without cars you can have the window open during the night without noise pollution, right? We'll sorta because the neighborhood youth is out three stories below, gathering and having "fun" while you are trying to get the baby go to sleep before you yourself pass out from exhaustion. All the while annoying the elderly couple three balconies over with baby cries yourself.
    - Turskarama 2y ago
OldGuyInTheClub 2y ago
Consolidated reply to you and a few others: Speaking here as an older-than-average HNer caring for an elderly parent. Not all doctors are equal, if the local is a lemon, it is usually a distance to the next one. Then, there are specialists and worst-case, hospitals. Public transit is awful in the US and not nearly reliable or safe enough for medical transport, especially of the elderly. There are senior transport vans but they require scheduling, there are restrictions on which cities they go to, and there can be delays. I don't use rideshares but I'm betting that they're not geared towards riders that need extra time and maybe help getting all the way to the door and then into the house. All added stress for the senior citizen. Ambulances are ruinously expensive. I'm extremely happy that I can drive her where she needs to go. Being around people and being on top of them are two entirely different situations. I lived in apartments until a late age when I could afford to put down roots. They were ill built, insulated, and ventilated then and getting worse. When remote neighbors made fish, I gagged all the same. Navigating cramped parking lots, dealing with stolen packages and mail, and having the musical choices of others thrust on me? I can do without that and a lot more. We have family members that lived in a huge SoCal apartment complex for a few years. One is in a wheelchair and the development had some mandated ADA units. Every year they had to move to a new apartment within the complex to /minimize/ the rent increase. Minimize. They tried to negotiate with the faceless corporation that said no negotiations were possible. Pay to stay or pay a little less to move. They eventually left for NorCal where they could purchase a home. These developments are put up by, whaddya whaddya, developers. They are cheaping out on quality so the units are smaller, the walls are thinner, and the ventilation just good enough to pass. Enshittification is everywhere. And, just like the new generation of malls, any public and semi-private spaces are governed by heavy restrictions on what can be done (not much) and what can't (quite a bit). There's a YT channel, I forget the name, that had lots of vids on "It's better in Amsterdam" because the 30-something creator could bike to his grocer and cafe. Lots of repeated clips of the same bike going down the same flat path in good weather to a shop or restaurant. I'm for livable, walkable cities but I soon had enough and blocked the guy.
- soco 2y ago
  On the other hand, I live in Switzerland and I see the apartment buildings around (it's a village) with large balconies and terraces, only a couple of stories high and well insulated, with services for the elderly available around the clock, public transport close to home even at night, and they are built by, whaddya whaddya, developers. So please don't dismiss something just because it's not working in the States. It IS possible and it EXISTS already, whatever you block the messengers or not. And if you folks keep your eyes closed or keep saying "not possible here" you will never have it either. Never.

by svpk 2y ago

MichaelZuo 2y ago

So a full road network, big enough to access every residence, will still be required. But it'll just be 99%+ empty?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
voisin 2y ago
I think the idea is large pedestrian only paths, interruptible in rare occasions by emergency vehicles or for moving large things (perhaps car priority during very limited hours?)
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  Sure the roads on average can be a lot narrower, assuming perfect coordination, but it will still be a needed pretty much in all the same places...
drewcoo 2y ago
Before cars, we had roads. They were not empty. A big problem with cars was that people had to stop walking on (or near!) roads.
- randomdata 2y ago
  If you watch film of early cars, people still happily walked amongst them. The problem isn't so much with cars themselves, but with increasingly impatient people; the intensifying rat race.
  - paleotrope 2y ago
    What is a rat race? I've heard it all my life but until this moment I never questioned what it actually meant.

tharkun__ 2y ago

Not your parent here. People around is great. People around in great density tends to breed problems instead. Your parent is probably thinking density. Like lots of 3 storey plus buildings with paper thin walls and ceilings. In dense urban development. You can like people and community all you want but if that's all over the place you are gonna breed interpersonal issues. You have to be a very tolerant person to endure that. And for the record, yes, not everyone likes non family people being that close. I am OK with my neighbors doing whatever they want if I can't hear their loud bass all afternoon and night time. But if it feels like their every weekend (or worse weeknight) is happening right in my bedroom then yeah I "can't stand people".

epolanski 2y ago
I mean, this is easily fixed by having insulated walls, which are common in new buildings both for privacy and thermal insulation.
- tharkun__ 2y ago
  Sorta but not really. For one, which large cities in NA have any of that? They've got buildings that are not new all over. Also, what is "new"? I've lived in buildings built in the last 10-15 years that were definitely still paper thin. Heck we have several tens of meters between us and the neighbors house and we can hear them sometimes. The other thing is for example balconies. There's not a thermal or insulated wall new building thing in the world that is gonna save you from your downstairs neighbor chain smoking on the balcony all hours of the day. You can't sit outside in the afternoon or on the weekend enjoying life. You can't sleep with the window open (fresh cool air required for proper sleep). At least because you live in a city without cars you can have the window open during the night without noise pollution, right? We'll sorta because the neighborhood youth is out three stories below, gathering and having "fun" while you are trying to get the baby go to sleep before you yourself pass out from exhaustion. All the while annoying the elderly couple three balconies over with baby cries yourself.
  - Turskarama 2y ago

OldGuyInTheClub 2y ago

Consolidated reply to you and a few others: Speaking here as an older-than-average HNer caring for an elderly parent. Not all doctors are equal, if the local is a lemon, it is usually a distance to the next one. Then, there are specialists and worst-case, hospitals. Public transit is awful in the US and not nearly reliable or safe enough for medical transport, especially of the elderly. There are senior transport vans but they require scheduling, there are restrictions on which cities they go to, and there can be delays. I don't use rideshares but I'm betting that they're not geared towards riders that need extra time and maybe help getting all the way to the door and then into the house. All added stress for the senior citizen. Ambulances are ruinously expensive. I'm extremely happy that I can drive her where she needs to go. Being around people and being on top of them are two entirely different situations. I lived in apartments until a late age when I could afford to put down roots. They were ill built, insulated, and ventilated then and getting worse. When remote neighbors made fish, I gagged all the same. Navigating cramped parking lots, dealing with stolen packages and mail, and having the musical choices of others thrust on me? I can do without that and a lot more. We have family members that lived in a huge SoCal apartment complex for a few years. One is in a wheelchair and the development had some mandated ADA units. Every year they had to move to a new apartment within the complex to /minimize/ the rent increase. Minimize. They tried to negotiate with the faceless corporation that said no negotiations were possible. Pay to stay or pay a little less to move. They eventually left for NorCal where they could purchase a home. These developments are put up by, whaddya whaddya, developers. They are cheaping out on quality so the units are smaller, the walls are thinner, and the ventilation just good enough to pass. Enshittification is everywhere. And, just like the new generation of malls, any public and semi-private spaces are governed by heavy restrictions on what can be done (not much) and what can't (quite a bit). There's a YT channel, I forget the name, that had lots of vids on "It's better in Amsterdam" because the 30-something creator could bike to his grocer and cafe. Lots of repeated clips of the same bike going down the same flat path in good weather to a shop or restaurant. I'm for livable, walkable cities but I soon had enough and blocked the guy.

soco 2y ago
On the other hand, I live in Switzerland and I see the apartment buildings around (it's a village) with large balconies and terraces, only a couple of stories high and well insulated, with services for the elderly available around the clock, public transport close to home even at night, and they are built by, whaddya whaddya, developers. So please don't dismiss something just because it's not working in the States. It IS possible and it EXISTS already, whatever you block the messengers or not. And if you folks keep your eyes closed or keep saying "not possible here" you will never have it either. Never.