6 ms·

Debian Packaging from First Principles

87 points by alexzeitler 2y ago

mappu 2y ago
With regards to the other front-page story about attracting new Debian Developers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41599327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41599327 - This article is great for understanding the deb format. Lots of tools can make deb archives e.g. https://fpm.readthedocs.io/ https://fpm.readthedocs.io/ . However making a binary package for users is a quite different thing to making a deb suitable for inclusion in Debian itself. A debian source package is a tuple of three .dsc + .tar.gz + .debian.tar.gz files.
- roenxi 2y ago
  I thought a relevant comment on that story by o11c [0] was particularly insightful based on my experience with Debian packaging. The format is probably optimised for long term maintenance or running up against inherent complexity or something (works great as a user) but the process of setting up a package did have a weirdly high-friction feel. The last time I tried to package something for a Debian system it felt a lot more like constructing a fork of the project than distributing something that already existed. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41638352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41638352
sweeter 2y ago
Isn't this overly complicated for what amounts to what could be a single file with 7 lines of information, instead of 3-5 tar archives that contain a single file with 1-3 lines of information? but still, that was a pretty interesting write up.
- Everdred2dx 2y ago
  Guessing that this is the result of years (or decades?) of incremental changes maintaining backwards compatibility.
  - elcritch 2y ago
    I wouldn’t agree that it’s overly complicated. Compare it to the Docker/OCI container format with multiple layers of tarballs and complicated manifest.json files. The deb format appears much simpler.
    - Timber-6539 2y ago
      Docker is just like Debian in this instance. It would give you a base system from where you create the package using the same exact steps.
- creshal 2y ago
  Yeah, Debian is very, very unergonomic for package maintainers. I get that it's historically groen, but it has historically grown into an abomination that scares off people. Arch packaging is a breeze in comparison. You indeed only need one file and that's it.
  - dima55 2y ago
    Well, to be fair, no package maintainers are touching any of the stuff described here. All the "ar" and "control.tar" stuff is handled for you by the tools. This isn't a "this is how you build packages" article, it's a "here's how the guts of these packages work" article.
    - kasabali 2y ago
      to be really fair, the tools package maintainers use are more complicated than stuff described in the blog post. Best way to discourage anyone from generating a .deb package is recommending him read the official "new maintainers guide"
      - dima55 2y ago
        To do the stuff the blog post talks about you 'dpkg-buildpackage'. That's it. After years of maintaining packages, I think I decided that much of the complexity is unfortunately warranted. You want stuff to work in all sorts of situations, with all sorts of different other things installed at the same time. You want upgrades to work. You want tests to work and to run, but probably you want to skip them when cross-building. You want the package to be co-installable across architectures. You want the package to be cross-buildable and to be usable to cross-build other packages. And you want your builds to be reproducible. And lots and lots of other things, all the while having to deal with upstreams that often don't care about many of these things. I haven't seen any other packaging system that is both nicer and maintains Debian's high standards. Maybe something exists. I think Debian's biggest problem in this area is the documentation. The official docs should be more accessible, but that's a big job that nobody has stepped up to do. Yet.
- soneil 2y ago
  I suspect it only looks like overkill in the context of the simplest possible example. Once you start adding things like pre-inst, post-inst scripts, binary redirections with update-alternatives, I suspect the complications start to pay off.
- compsciphd 2y ago
  it's 3 files, 1 file that really just specified deb format version and 2 tar files. data.tar.gz (extracted out to file system) and control.tar.gz (a set of metadata file, including installation scripts). In practice, how would one make it simpler? i'd note it's simplicity (and the fact that ipkg/ipk format was based on it), was what enabled me to help the people who "jailbroke" (really just install homebrew apps) the palm pre: https://www.engadget.com/2009-06-22-pre-apps-successfully-installed-on-non-rooted-phone-world-waits.html https://www.engadget.com/2009-06-22-pre-apps-successfully-in... I was able to assist people that had the device without even having one as the format (to me at least) was very simple.
elchief 2y ago
weird timing! made my first .deb tonight... I appreciate first principles, but i just used dkpg-deb --build
- lagniappe 2y ago
  do you have a blog? i've got a thing id like to package for deb but the docs are a bit complex and intimidating
  - elchief 2y ago
    this one's pretty easy to start: https://www.internalpointers.com/post/build-binary-deb-package-practical-guide https://www.internalpointers.com/post/build-binary-deb-packa...
    - lagniappe 2y ago
      thanks!
  - sunaookami 2y ago
    Not OP but I have started with https://github.com/FooBarWidget/debian-packaging-for-the-modern-developer https://github.com/FooBarWidget/debian-packaging-for-the-mod... - it's 4 years old but the basics are still valid. Then I would recommend the debhelper documentation. I maintain a few binary deb packages for my own repo myself. For this I would recommend reprepro.
    - lagniappe 2y ago
      thanks!
  - pxc 2y ago
    First try updating an existing source package or adding a patch to one. Hell, just download one with `apt-get source` and just read it— look at the files that make up the source package. Then download a few more. Maybe try and build some. Change a couple files before building and see what happens. Once you have a feel for that stuff, use debhelper to create a new package 'from scratch' (from an upstream source tarball). This 'tutorial'¹ presents basically the same info as the Debian packaging docs² but it feels more easily digestible to me because of how it's chopped up into slides. Some of the manpages are also good. The debhelper manpage³ refers you to other small docs, notably dh_make⁴, which is probably your best starting point for creating a package from scratch. -- 1: https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/packaging-tutorial/packaging-tutorial.pdf https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/packaging-tutorial/packag... 2: https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debmake-doc/ch05.en.html#workflow https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debmake-doc/ch05.en.html#... 3: https://manpages.debian.org/bullseye/debhelper/debhelper.7.en.html https://manpages.debian.org/bullseye/debhelper/debhelper.7.e... 4: https://manpages.debian.org/testing/dh-make/dh_make.1.en.html https://manpages.debian.org/testing/dh-make/dh_make.1.en.htm...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
apichat 2y ago
Isn't it time to use GNU Guix package manager ? https://guix.gnu.org/ https://guix.gnu.org/

87 points by alexzeitler 2y ago

With regards to the other front-page story about attracting new Debian Developers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41599327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41599327 - This article is great for understanding the deb format. Lots of tools can make deb archives e.g. https://fpm.readthedocs.io/ https://fpm.readthedocs.io/ . However making a binary package for users is a quite different thing to making a deb suitable for inclusion in Debian itself. A debian source package is a tuple of three .dsc + .tar.gz + .debian.tar.gz files.

roenxi 2y ago
I thought a relevant comment on that story by o11c [0] was particularly insightful based on my experience with Debian packaging. The format is probably optimised for long term maintenance or running up against inherent complexity or something (works great as a user) but the process of setting up a package did have a weirdly high-friction feel. The last time I tried to package something for a Debian system it felt a lot more like constructing a fork of the project than distributing something that already existed. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41638352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41638352

sweeter 2y ago

Isn't this overly complicated for what amounts to what could be a single file with 7 lines of information, instead of 3-5 tar archives that contain a single file with 1-3 lines of information? but still, that was a pretty interesting write up.

Everdred2dx 2y ago
Guessing that this is the result of years (or decades?) of incremental changes maintaining backwards compatibility.
- elcritch 2y ago
  I wouldn’t agree that it’s overly complicated. Compare it to the Docker/OCI container format with multiple layers of tarballs and complicated manifest.json files. The deb format appears much simpler.
  - Timber-6539 2y ago
    Docker is just like Debian in this instance. It would give you a base system from where you create the package using the same exact steps.
creshal 2y ago
Yeah, Debian is very, very unergonomic for package maintainers. I get that it's historically groen, but it has historically grown into an abomination that scares off people. Arch packaging is a breeze in comparison. You indeed only need one file and that's it.
- dima55 2y ago
  Well, to be fair, no package maintainers are touching any of the stuff described here. All the "ar" and "control.tar" stuff is handled for you by the tools. This isn't a "this is how you build packages" article, it's a "here's how the guts of these packages work" article.
  - kasabali 2y ago
    to be really fair, the tools package maintainers use are more complicated than stuff described in the blog post. Best way to discourage anyone from generating a .deb package is recommending him read the official "new maintainers guide"
    - dima55 2y ago
      To do the stuff the blog post talks about you 'dpkg-buildpackage'. That's it. After years of maintaining packages, I think I decided that much of the complexity is unfortunately warranted. You want stuff to work in all sorts of situations, with all sorts of different other things installed at the same time. You want upgrades to work. You want tests to work and to run, but probably you want to skip them when cross-building. You want the package to be co-installable across architectures. You want the package to be cross-buildable and to be usable to cross-build other packages. And you want your builds to be reproducible. And lots and lots of other things, all the while having to deal with upstreams that often don't care about many of these things. I haven't seen any other packaging system that is both nicer and maintains Debian's high standards. Maybe something exists. I think Debian's biggest problem in this area is the documentation. The official docs should be more accessible, but that's a big job that nobody has stepped up to do. Yet.
soneil 2y ago
I suspect it only looks like overkill in the context of the simplest possible example. Once you start adding things like pre-inst, post-inst scripts, binary redirections with update-alternatives, I suspect the complications start to pay off.
compsciphd 2y ago
it's 3 files, 1 file that really just specified deb format version and 2 tar files. data.tar.gz (extracted out to file system) and control.tar.gz (a set of metadata file, including installation scripts). In practice, how would one make it simpler? i'd note it's simplicity (and the fact that ipkg/ipk format was based on it), was what enabled me to help the people who "jailbroke" (really just install homebrew apps) the palm pre: https://www.engadget.com/2009-06-22-pre-apps-successfully-installed-on-non-rooted-phone-world-waits.html https://www.engadget.com/2009-06-22-pre-apps-successfully-in... I was able to assist people that had the device without even having one as the format (to me at least) was very simple.

elchief 2y ago

weird timing! made my first .deb tonight... I appreciate first principles, but i just used dkpg-deb --build

lagniappe 2y ago
do you have a blog? i've got a thing id like to package for deb but the docs are a bit complex and intimidating
- elchief 2y ago
  this one's pretty easy to start: https://www.internalpointers.com/post/build-binary-deb-package-practical-guide https://www.internalpointers.com/post/build-binary-deb-packa...
  - lagniappe 2y ago
    thanks!
- sunaookami 2y ago
  Not OP but I have started with https://github.com/FooBarWidget/debian-packaging-for-the-modern-developer https://github.com/FooBarWidget/debian-packaging-for-the-mod... - it's 4 years old but the basics are still valid. Then I would recommend the debhelper documentation. I maintain a few binary deb packages for my own repo myself. For this I would recommend reprepro.
  - lagniappe 2y ago
    thanks!
- pxc 2y ago
  First try updating an existing source package or adding a patch to one. Hell, just download one with `apt-get source` and just read it— look at the files that make up the source package. Then download a few more. Maybe try and build some. Change a couple files before building and see what happens. Once you have a feel for that stuff, use debhelper to create a new package 'from scratch' (from an upstream source tarball). This 'tutorial'¹ presents basically the same info as the Debian packaging docs² but it feels more easily digestible to me because of how it's chopped up into slides. Some of the manpages are also good. The debhelper manpage³ refers you to other small docs, notably dh_make⁴, which is probably your best starting point for creating a package from scratch. -- 1: https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/packaging-tutorial/packaging-tutorial.pdf https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/packaging-tutorial/packag... 2: https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debmake-doc/ch05.en.html#workflow https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debmake-doc/ch05.en.html#... 3: https://manpages.debian.org/bullseye/debhelper/debhelper.7.en.html https://manpages.debian.org/bullseye/debhelper/debhelper.7.e... 4: https://manpages.debian.org/testing/dh-make/dh_make.1.en.html https://manpages.debian.org/testing/dh-make/dh_make.1.en.htm...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

apichat 2y ago

Isn't it time to use GNU Guix package manager ? https://guix.gnu.org/ https://guix.gnu.org/