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I think it would depend: one of the reasons the streetcars were originally eliminated is that they were increasingly held up in traffic, and the argument was th

I think it would depend: one of the reasons the streetcars were originally eliminated is that they were increasingly held up in traffic, and the argument was that buses could navigate (like cars) around traffic, make detours, etc. In practice however that hasn't really been borne out: the city's buses are notoriously slow. The city has (correctly) reprioritized bus lanes (including lane enforcement for scofflaw drivers) and express services (SBS) in response, but at that point we're essentially back to rights-of-way (i.e. how much of Europe runs timely and efficient streetcar networks). In short: I think streetcars would be less effective if not (partially) separated, but more effective otherwise. Given that the city is moving towards bus lane separation anyways, I personally believe they should revitalize the streetcar network instead. But that's (1) expensive, and (2) involves impressive amounts of local political spaghetti, given that the buses are currently run by state-level MTA while the roads are owned by the city.

thescriptkiddie 2y ago
Ya the idea that buses are better than streetcars because they can go around traffic is just completely detached from reality. Maybe a bus can go around one double-parked car but during rush hour that's not happening. It was always just an excuse to avoid taking an inch of space away from cars for dedicated transit right of way.
- JambalayaJimbo 2y ago
  I live in Toronto and avoid taking streetcars because I have seen significant delays precisely because of parked cars or some other blockage. Of course in my opinion this simply means banning parking on streetcar routes; or having dedicated streetcar lanes where a blockage simply isn’t possible. Streetcar routes in Toronto which do not share the road are fine.
freditup 2y ago
What's the benefit to streetcars over busses with a dedicated, physically separated right of way? I like the idea of streetcars, but busses seem easier to purchase than streetcars, standard road paving seems easier to maintain than streetcar tracks and power, and likely it's easier to find/train bus operators than streetcar operators (even though I assume streetcars are actually a bit easier to operate).
- woodruffw 2y ago
  The main one, in my mind, is permanency: as I mentioned in the adjacent comment, stable car-independent communities tend to be built around transportation systems that can’t be easily removed. (I think there are other benefits, like being slightly more comfortable. But permanency is by far the most important.)
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    Capacity and level boarding are the two big ones. Trams are more capacious than buses because they don’t have onboard fuel tanks, so more space for passengers; and they’re fixed to tracks so they can be significantly longer without worrying about the back swinging out. Trams are also perfectly level with platforms, so there’s no need to waste time to achieve level boarding for wheelchairs, strollers, luggage and the elderly; buses can spend quite a lot of time kneeling and deploying ramps.
    - woodruffw 2y ago
      These are good points!
- _visgean 2y ago
  In prague there is both extensive bus network and tram network. I almost always go for buses. The capacity is just so much higher and usually the drive is much smoother compared to buses. Also trams are powered by electricity making it more efficient and c02 neutral... > standard road paving seems easier to maintain than streetcar tracks I would think that tracks last way longer. Overall I think the cost is lower in long term for street cars but the initial cost is super high - e.g. edinburgh build one awkward tram line for around 700m. But thats with depots, cars everything. In Prague with all existing infrastructure it cost now about 78m usd to build 2.2km of tram with 6 stops.
  - klabb3 2y ago
    Fellow European here. My understanding is street cars started out as futuristic marvels of modernity, but unlike their cousins trains & subways, they aged fairly poorly and don't generally do well in mixed city traffic today: First, you can’t go faster than cars or avoid traffic (in practice), so there’s no obvious advantage like with trains. Secondly, buses got a lot cleaner, spacious, comfortable and quieter. The modern buses in European cities are not just on-par, but often more comfortable and allow higher speed on long stretches, because modern suspension beats aging fixed rail (it tends to be shaky, again unlike trains). So then what’s the point? Trams are electric? Given how buses are basically commodity in our oil-centric world, I can only imagine how trams look at the balance sheet in comparison. Now, there are some exceptional cases where I really like trams. When the route has majority separate rail (typically in beautiful stretches of nature) but can switch into streets when needed to reach better. For instance, Tvärbanan in Stockholm is a tram that – while not always perfect – is universally appreciated by most.
andrepd 2y ago
Any public transport that doesn't have its own right of way is immediately and trivially broken, since it will be always strictly worse than an individual car. So more people will take cars, so traffic will be worse, so buses will be worse by the same measure, so will still be worse than cars, so... That's how you get LA levels of gridlock despite every street being a 14 lane freeway. Whereas if buses/trams run in a dedicated lane with the same speed independent of car traffic, there is immediately a natural balancing incentive / restoring force: too much car traffic and the bus will become comparatively more attractive, so less people will take cars, so traffic will be lessened, so
- 7speter 2y ago
  NYC buses have been crowded since before I was born 30+ years ago, even if they are crawling at 4 mph
dataflow 2y ago
> the city's buses are notoriously slow Are the buses actually slower than they can be, or do they just have to deal with too many passengers (given the population density) taking a long time to board/unboard?
- woodruffw 2y ago
  Boarding time is a factor, but traffic, road conditions (double parking and driving in the bus lane), and stop spacing are larger ones. Especially since OMNY and pre-purchased tickets for the SBS routes.
morkalork 2y ago
Enforcing right of way for street cars could be a lot more efficient now. Stick a licence plate reader on the front of trolley, record any car that blocks them for more than X minutes and mail a ticket. Drivers will learn fast not to screw around.
- anticensor 2y ago
  > for more than X minutes You meant seconds there, not minutes.
canucker2016 2y ago
For two-lanes-or-less-each-way streets, buses don't offer much benefit if the streets are busy since the chance of being able to get enough space for a very heavy, long bus to switch lanes is low/impossible. Streets cars/trams weakness include breakdowns - trailing streetcars/trams are blocked if a streetcar breaks down on the track. But, they can also carry more passengers than buses. I think many modern versions are about 3-4 bus-lengths long.

thescriptkiddie 2y ago

Ya the idea that buses are better than streetcars because they can go around traffic is just completely detached from reality. Maybe a bus can go around one double-parked car but during rush hour that's not happening. It was always just an excuse to avoid taking an inch of space away from cars for dedicated transit right of way.

JambalayaJimbo 2y ago
I live in Toronto and avoid taking streetcars because I have seen significant delays precisely because of parked cars or some other blockage. Of course in my opinion this simply means banning parking on streetcar routes; or having dedicated streetcar lanes where a blockage simply isn’t possible. Streetcar routes in Toronto which do not share the road are fine.

freditup 2y ago

What's the benefit to streetcars over busses with a dedicated, physically separated right of way? I like the idea of streetcars, but busses seem easier to purchase than streetcars, standard road paving seems easier to maintain than streetcar tracks and power, and likely it's easier to find/train bus operators than streetcar operators (even though I assume streetcars are actually a bit easier to operate).

woodruffw 2y ago
The main one, in my mind, is permanency: as I mentioned in the adjacent comment, stable car-independent communities tend to be built around transportation systems that can’t be easily removed. (I think there are other benefits, like being slightly more comfortable. But permanency is by far the most important.)
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  Capacity and level boarding are the two big ones. Trams are more capacious than buses because they don’t have onboard fuel tanks, so more space for passengers; and they’re fixed to tracks so they can be significantly longer without worrying about the back swinging out. Trams are also perfectly level with platforms, so there’s no need to waste time to achieve level boarding for wheelchairs, strollers, luggage and the elderly; buses can spend quite a lot of time kneeling and deploying ramps.
  - woodruffw 2y ago
    These are good points!
_visgean 2y ago
In prague there is both extensive bus network and tram network. I almost always go for buses. The capacity is just so much higher and usually the drive is much smoother compared to buses. Also trams are powered by electricity making it more efficient and c02 neutral... > standard road paving seems easier to maintain than streetcar tracks I would think that tracks last way longer. Overall I think the cost is lower in long term for street cars but the initial cost is super high - e.g. edinburgh build one awkward tram line for around 700m. But thats with depots, cars everything. In Prague with all existing infrastructure it cost now about 78m usd to build 2.2km of tram with 6 stops.
- klabb3 2y ago
  Fellow European here. My understanding is street cars started out as futuristic marvels of modernity, but unlike their cousins trains & subways, they aged fairly poorly and don't generally do well in mixed city traffic today: First, you can’t go faster than cars or avoid traffic (in practice), so there’s no obvious advantage like with trains. Secondly, buses got a lot cleaner, spacious, comfortable and quieter. The modern buses in European cities are not just on-par, but often more comfortable and allow higher speed on long stretches, because modern suspension beats aging fixed rail (it tends to be shaky, again unlike trains). So then what’s the point? Trams are electric? Given how buses are basically commodity in our oil-centric world, I can only imagine how trams look at the balance sheet in comparison. Now, there are some exceptional cases where I really like trams. When the route has majority separate rail (typically in beautiful stretches of nature) but can switch into streets when needed to reach better. For instance, Tvärbanan in Stockholm is a tram that – while not always perfect – is universally appreciated by most.

andrepd 2y ago

Any public transport that doesn't have its own right of way is immediately and trivially broken, since it will be always strictly worse than an individual car. So more people will take cars, so traffic will be worse, so buses will be worse by the same measure, so will still be worse than cars, so... That's how you get LA levels of gridlock despite every street being a 14 lane freeway. Whereas if buses/trams run in a dedicated lane with the same speed independent of car traffic, there is immediately a natural balancing incentive / restoring force: too much car traffic and the bus will become comparatively more attractive, so less people will take cars, so traffic will be lessened, so

7speter 2y ago
NYC buses have been crowded since before I was born 30+ years ago, even if they are crawling at 4 mph

dataflow 2y ago

> the city's buses are notoriously slow Are the buses actually slower than they can be, or do they just have to deal with too many passengers (given the population density) taking a long time to board/unboard?

woodruffw 2y ago
Boarding time is a factor, but traffic, road conditions (double parking and driving in the bus lane), and stop spacing are larger ones. Especially since OMNY and pre-purchased tickets for the SBS routes.

morkalork 2y ago

Enforcing right of way for street cars could be a lot more efficient now. Stick a licence plate reader on the front of trolley, record any car that blocks them for more than X minutes and mail a ticket. Drivers will learn fast not to screw around.

anticensor 2y ago
> for more than X minutes You meant seconds there, not minutes.

canucker2016 2y ago

For two-lanes-or-less-each-way streets, buses don't offer much benefit if the streets are busy since the chance of being able to get enough space for a very heavy, long bus to switch lanes is low/impossible. Streets cars/trams weakness include breakdowns - trailing streetcars/trams are blocked if a streetcar breaks down on the track. But, they can also carry more passengers than buses. I think many modern versions are about 3-4 bus-lengths long.