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Notably, Matt demanded that would need to be paid to Automattic instead of the WordPress Foundation. (that's according to WPEngine). Automattic is Matt's priva

by mthoms 2y ago

Notably, Matt demanded that would need to be paid to Automattic instead of the WordPress Foundation. (that's according to WPEngine). Automattic is Matt's private, for-profit company and a direct competitor to WPE.

tptacek 2y ago
There are things in that WPE C&D that make me question how candid they're being; for instance, the trademark dispute seems an awful lot more complicated than the letters "W" and "P".
- chuckadams 2y ago
  Perhaps, but as I mentioned elsewhere, MM is putting on a master class on how not to resolve such disputes.
slouch 2y ago
That's because Matt's Foundation gave Matt's Automattic the exclusive commercial trademark license. https://x.com/photomatt/status/1838671002529665394 https://x.com/photomatt/status/1838671002529665394
- keane 2y ago
  Matt gave away the software he invented and founded a commercial venture to monetize his efforts despite this. Automattic originally registered the trademarks. Years later they donated them to the foundation, to make the marks available for noncommercial use and limited commercial use. In the process Automattic retained the exclusive commercial license to the marks.
  - Kye 2y ago
    Where is the invention? He forked b2/cafelog and continued work on it when the original project faded out. He had no choice but to give it away unless he wanted the only WordPress install in the world. Another fork like b2evolution or any of the billion blogging tools at the time would have taken the spot WordPress did instead.
    - keane 2y ago
      >Where is the invention? “it would be nice to have the flexibility of Movable Type, the parsing of Textpattern, the hackability of b2, and the ease of setup of Blogger. Someday, right?” Synthesis is a type of invention: https://evanm.website/2016/03/synthesis-over-invention/ https://evanm.website/2016/03/synthesis-over-invention/ >Another fork like b2evolution or any of the billion blogging tools at the time would have— People love to say things like this about any and all products but there’s this overwhelming counterpoint of what actually happened.
arp242 2y ago
Matt's message reads: > They had the option to license the WordPress trademark for 8% of their revenue, which could be delivered either as payments, people (Five for the Future .org commitments), or any combination of the above. So they could have "paid" by just hiring a few WordPress devs to work on it. That is: not necessarily by transferring dollars to Automattic. IMHO this is an important bit of nuance missing in this thread.
- mthoms 2y ago
  Right. But who gatekeeps the project focus, direction and spending? Automattic does. This would be a different conversation if there was an independent and accountable foundation driving things.
  - arp242 2y ago
    They do the majority of the work, so they get to decide. That's how it works everywhere. If WP Engine wants to decide they should invest the same 4,000 hours/week.
    - mthoms 2y ago
      That's the problem though. It's a chicken and egg issue. Those donated hours could be directed towards things that aren't in WPEngines interest. To use an analogy: it's taxation without representation. That seems counter to the open source ethos. If everything was handled by an independent, transparent and accountable foundation then this would be a different conversation. It isn't. It's handled by a private, for profit, vc-backed company with a leader known for personal vendettas and holding grudges. I want to be clear: I have no love for WPE and agree they should be doing way more. I'm just pointing out that the current arrangement is not exactly conducive to facilitating that.
      - arp242 2y ago
        > Those donated hours could be directed towards things that aren't in WPEngines interest I have a hard time seeing how that can happen. WP-Engine still decides what bits of WordPress they work on – it's just a matter of having developers who work on it.

by mthoms 2y ago

tptacek 2y ago

There are things in that WPE C&D that make me question how candid they're being; for instance, the trademark dispute seems an awful lot more complicated than the letters "W" and "P".

chuckadams 2y ago
Perhaps, but as I mentioned elsewhere, MM is putting on a master class on how not to resolve such disputes.

slouch 2y ago

That's because Matt's Foundation gave Matt's Automattic the exclusive commercial trademark license. https://x.com/photomatt/status/1838671002529665394 https://x.com/photomatt/status/1838671002529665394

keane 2y ago
Matt gave away the software he invented and founded a commercial venture to monetize his efforts despite this. Automattic originally registered the trademarks. Years later they donated them to the foundation, to make the marks available for noncommercial use and limited commercial use. In the process Automattic retained the exclusive commercial license to the marks.
- Kye 2y ago
  Where is the invention? He forked b2/cafelog and continued work on it when the original project faded out. He had no choice but to give it away unless he wanted the only WordPress install in the world. Another fork like b2evolution or any of the billion blogging tools at the time would have taken the spot WordPress did instead.
  - keane 2y ago
    >Where is the invention? “it would be nice to have the flexibility of Movable Type, the parsing of Textpattern, the hackability of b2, and the ease of setup of Blogger. Someday, right?” Synthesis is a type of invention: https://evanm.website/2016/03/synthesis-over-invention/ https://evanm.website/2016/03/synthesis-over-invention/ >Another fork like b2evolution or any of the billion blogging tools at the time would have— People love to say things like this about any and all products but there’s this overwhelming counterpoint of what actually happened.

arp242 2y ago

Matt's message reads: > They had the option to license the WordPress trademark for 8% of their revenue, which could be delivered either as payments, people (Five for the Future .org commitments), or any combination of the above. So they could have "paid" by just hiring a few WordPress devs to work on it. That is: not necessarily by transferring dollars to Automattic. IMHO this is an important bit of nuance missing in this thread.

mthoms 2y ago
Right. But who gatekeeps the project focus, direction and spending? Automattic does. This would be a different conversation if there was an independent and accountable foundation driving things.
- arp242 2y ago
  They do the majority of the work, so they get to decide. That's how it works everywhere. If WP Engine wants to decide they should invest the same 4,000 hours/week.
  - mthoms 2y ago
    That's the problem though. It's a chicken and egg issue. Those donated hours could be directed towards things that aren't in WPEngines interest. To use an analogy: it's taxation without representation. That seems counter to the open source ethos. If everything was handled by an independent, transparent and accountable foundation then this would be a different conversation. It isn't. It's handled by a private, for profit, vc-backed company with a leader known for personal vendettas and holding grudges. I want to be clear: I have no love for WPE and agree they should be doing way more. I'm just pointing out that the current arrangement is not exactly conducive to facilitating that.
    - arp242 2y ago
      > Those donated hours could be directed towards things that aren't in WPEngines interest I have a hard time seeing how that can happen. WP-Engine still decides what bits of WordPress they work on – it's just a matter of having developers who work on it.