5 ms·

India is an expert at imposing oppressive laws and policies without thinking through them much.

alephnerd 2y ago
What is the alternative for providing direct benefits without lossage? A centralized ID makes it easier to verify identity, given that alternative local systems of identification were easily falsified and used to siphon money away from welfare programs by local politicians of all parties. Before Aadhaar, to get your PAN card you often had to deal with your local panchayat, and that was often a compromised method with local panchayat functionaries requiring bribes or straight up ignoring individuals. Furthermore, because the local level was so compromised, it was easy to create either fake IDs which was often used for siphoning funds. Digital/Identity Libertarianism is a Veblen good when the absolute majority of the population is dependent on government benefits and subsidies.
- OutOfHere 2y ago
  There is no alternative afaik. The issues however are: 1. Friction in getting the card in the first place, especially in cases that are out of the ordinary. 2. Extensive and mandatory use of the card for routine non-governmental things that are not benefits or bank accounts. This is more pervasive than one may realize.
  - stackskipton 2y ago
    >2. Extensive and mandatory use of the card for routine non-governmental things that are not benefits or bank accounts. This is more pervasive than one may realize. This is common in almost every country that has central ID system. Businesses want easy way to track someone using Primary Key that doesn't change. It's even bigger benefit to business if it's Primary Key that's same across all businesses. Only way to prevent it is having laws that ban use of the number in business dealings but few countries have those laws.
    - OutOfHere 2y ago
      > This is common in almost every country that has central ID system. Not true. The US has a Social Security Number but it is not needed for everyday business use. It is not needed for getting a cell phone number, for example. In India, the Aadhaa card is needed for getting a cell phone number.
      - stackskipton 2y ago
        It's required for getting postpaid cellular plan. It's also required to do banking so credit/debit card you give them, they likely can use that to backtrack.
        reaperducer 2y ago
        It's required for getting postpaid cellular plan. Nope. I got a new cellular device on a national carrier last year without giving up my SSN.
        stackskipton 2y ago
        Plan, not device. If you have a plan, they have your SSN already and ran soft credit check likely when you bought your device.
        reaperducer 2y ago
        It was a new plan, too. This is my first device with this carrier.
        ElevenLathe 2y ago
        Biggest one is probably health insurance. I'd be surprised if you can get any (private, employer-sponsored, ACA exchange, Medicaid, Medicare) health insurance plan without an SSN. Medicare at least makes sense since it is administered by the Social Security Administration.
      - kelipso 2y ago
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > What is the alternative for providing direct benefits without lossage? Accept the lossage. No system is foolproof, follow the Pareto principle and that's it. Unfortunately that one is hard to sell to voters, especially as "we're going to eradicate fraud" is a very popular platform of conservative/authoritarian politicians that just use fraud as an excuse to develop repressive systems.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    Pre-Aadhaar, 40-50% of overall welfare system distributions was lost due to corruption at the last mile [0] At the end of the day, India's model of development is based on much more statist Japan, South Korea, and Singapore's, as most advising, developmental grants, and FDI in India is furnished by these 3 countries. While India may speak English, it's administrative system and legal system is closer to Malaysia and Singapore's in jurisprudence and central control, and as such, administrative leadership in India tends to look at Singapore as a model - heck, Narendra Modi was mentored by Lee Kuan Yew when he was CM of Gujarat. Aadhaar itself was developed in coordination with Singapore, and is directly based on Malaysia's MyKad and Singapore's NRIC. Aadhaar has had disastrous pitfalls with rollout, but it is complete at this point - especially with COVID acting as a forcing function. [0] - https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/176312/1/icrier-wp-294.pdf https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/176312/1/icrier-wp-2...
    - jace 2y ago
      And what is the post-Aadhaar loss? Nobody knows, because there's no accounting. We're still in the "don't allow critical examination of Aadhaar" era of this regime. Also, I got my COVID-19 vaccination without Aadhaar. It wasn't asked anywhere. I'm not sure what you're referring to as a connection between them.
sreejithr 2y ago
I don't see any "oppression" here. All governments have personal data on its citizens. This is a fact of life. So far, the Aadhar data has been used for the benefit of society (like targeted assistance to people who deserve aid during Covid rather than doing "spray and pray")
- yapyap 2y ago
  Making life difficult till you eventually do get one is a pressure technique to get everyone to conform to whatever it is you’re trying to impose. Not sure what the right term’d be but it isn’t good nevertheless.
- OutOfHere 2y ago
  > the Aadhar data has been used for the benefit of society That's a partial view into it. It's also required for getting basic things that have nothing to do with the government, e.g. a cell phone number, and this is an example of the oppressive problem with it.
- eldaisfish 2y ago
  are you aware of the sale of Aadhar biometric data on the internet? There have been so many leaks at this point that it is borderline funny. In good faith, how can you look at that and say that Aadhar data has been used for the benefit of citizens? Despite often being "not mandatory", reality will disagree with you.
  - sreejithr 2y ago
    I’d say implementation issues shouldn’t influence our decision on whether an identity credential is fundamentally required or not for the country.
    - mangamadaiyan 2y ago
      Ah, yes. The difference between theory and practice doesn't matter when it is one's pet theory being discussed.

What is the alternative for providing direct benefits without lossage? A centralized ID makes it easier to verify identity, given that alternative local systems of identification were easily falsified and used to siphon money away from welfare programs by local politicians of all parties. Before Aadhaar, to get your PAN card you often had to deal with your local panchayat, and that was often a compromised method with local panchayat functionaries requiring bribes or straight up ignoring individuals. Furthermore, because the local level was so compromised, it was easy to create either fake IDs which was often used for siphoning funds. Digital/Identity Libertarianism is a Veblen good when the absolute majority of the population is dependent on government benefits and subsidies.

OutOfHere 2y ago
There is no alternative afaik. The issues however are: 1. Friction in getting the card in the first place, especially in cases that are out of the ordinary. 2. Extensive and mandatory use of the card for routine non-governmental things that are not benefits or bank accounts. This is more pervasive than one may realize.
- stackskipton 2y ago
  >2. Extensive and mandatory use of the card for routine non-governmental things that are not benefits or bank accounts. This is more pervasive than one may realize. This is common in almost every country that has central ID system. Businesses want easy way to track someone using Primary Key that doesn't change. It's even bigger benefit to business if it's Primary Key that's same across all businesses. Only way to prevent it is having laws that ban use of the number in business dealings but few countries have those laws.
  - OutOfHere 2y ago
    > This is common in almost every country that has central ID system. Not true. The US has a Social Security Number but it is not needed for everyday business use. It is not needed for getting a cell phone number, for example. In India, the Aadhaa card is needed for getting a cell phone number.
    - stackskipton 2y ago
      It's required for getting postpaid cellular plan. It's also required to do banking so credit/debit card you give them, they likely can use that to backtrack.
      - reaperducer 2y ago
        It's required for getting postpaid cellular plan. Nope. I got a new cellular device on a national carrier last year without giving up my SSN.
        stackskipton 2y ago
        Plan, not device. If you have a plan, they have your SSN already and ran soft credit check likely when you bought your device.
        reaperducer 2y ago
        It was a new plan, too. This is my first device with this carrier.
      - ElevenLathe 2y ago
        Biggest one is probably health insurance. I'd be surprised if you can get any (private, employer-sponsored, ACA exchange, Medicaid, Medicare) health insurance plan without an SSN. Medicare at least makes sense since it is administered by the Social Security Administration.
    - kelipso 2y ago
mschuster91 2y ago
> What is the alternative for providing direct benefits without lossage? Accept the lossage. No system is foolproof, follow the Pareto principle and that's it. Unfortunately that one is hard to sell to voters, especially as "we're going to eradicate fraud" is a very popular platform of conservative/authoritarian politicians that just use fraud as an excuse to develop repressive systems.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Pre-Aadhaar, 40-50% of overall welfare system distributions was lost due to corruption at the last mile [0] At the end of the day, India's model of development is based on much more statist Japan, South Korea, and Singapore's, as most advising, developmental grants, and FDI in India is furnished by these 3 countries. While India may speak English, it's administrative system and legal system is closer to Malaysia and Singapore's in jurisprudence and central control, and as such, administrative leadership in India tends to look at Singapore as a model - heck, Narendra Modi was mentored by Lee Kuan Yew when he was CM of Gujarat. Aadhaar itself was developed in coordination with Singapore, and is directly based on Malaysia's MyKad and Singapore's NRIC. Aadhaar has had disastrous pitfalls with rollout, but it is complete at this point - especially with COVID acting as a forcing function. [0] - https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/176312/1/icrier-wp-294.pdf https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/176312/1/icrier-wp-2...
  - jace 2y ago
    And what is the post-Aadhaar loss? Nobody knows, because there's no accounting. We're still in the "don't allow critical examination of Aadhaar" era of this regime. Also, I got my COVID-19 vaccination without Aadhaar. It wasn't asked anywhere. I'm not sure what you're referring to as a connection between them.

sreejithr 2y ago

I don't see any "oppression" here. All governments have personal data on its citizens. This is a fact of life. So far, the Aadhar data has been used for the benefit of society (like targeted assistance to people who deserve aid during Covid rather than doing "spray and pray")

yapyap 2y ago
Making life difficult till you eventually do get one is a pressure technique to get everyone to conform to whatever it is you’re trying to impose. Not sure what the right term’d be but it isn’t good nevertheless.
OutOfHere 2y ago
> the Aadhar data has been used for the benefit of society That's a partial view into it. It's also required for getting basic things that have nothing to do with the government, e.g. a cell phone number, and this is an example of the oppressive problem with it.
eldaisfish 2y ago
are you aware of the sale of Aadhar biometric data on the internet? There have been so many leaks at this point that it is borderline funny. In good faith, how can you look at that and say that Aadhar data has been used for the benefit of citizens? Despite often being "not mandatory", reality will disagree with you.
- sreejithr 2y ago
  I’d say implementation issues shouldn’t influence our decision on whether an identity credential is fundamentally required or not for the country.
  - mangamadaiyan 2y ago
    Ah, yes. The difference between theory and practice doesn't matter when it is one's pet theory being discussed.