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It's really bad when standups last for half an hour. A standup must include 5-7 people at most and last no longer than 15 mins. Preferably 5-10. Anything else s

It's really bad when standups last for half an hour. A standup must include 5-7 people at most and last no longer than 15 mins. Preferably 5-10. Anything else should be discussed outside of standup between specific team members only.

mdaniel 2y ago
See, I have almost the opposite opinion: it costs more interruption and "life stupidity" to have 7 people stand up, assemble, stop talking about sports, go around the room saying "no blockers," go get a pastry, go back to their desks, unlock their workstations, try to remember what the hell they were trying to do before all that dumbness. All of that to just hear the exact same thing any sane person who gave a shit could have read on a report emailed to them that morning, or -- more common in my experience -- that they would have read in the Mattermost/Slack/Teams/Zulip from the past day If one wants a status report, fine, have one periodically. But don't vaporize 30 minutes a day times 7 people just to go around the room talking. What a 1950s concept holy shit I have never in my life met a professional who sits on their hands for 23 hours waiting to say "uh, I have a blocker, but wanted to save it for this magic 15 minutes to ask for help." Yes, fine, n00bs do that, and that's what TFA was saying that interns need supervision, who knew.
- theideaofcoffee 2y ago
  Hard agree. It's all just devolved into cargo cult nonsense, follow the process, to parrot what they think large orgs are doing. And if you have an adequately competent culture, those noobs aren't going to be left hanging, they're going to learn that it's ok to ask to help get unblocked, and that's what should be taught. And yeah, I also can't agree more with your assessment about status reports being this relic from the past. What is this? The military? "SITREP. NOW!" Such a waste of breath, time, human life.
  - polishdude20 2y ago
    I feel like in a remote culture, stand-ups are kind of playing double duty. Both as a status reporting time and a team-vuuldinf socialization time. I feel we should separate these two things into async slack status reports and them regularly maybe bi weekly 30 minute team building meetings where no work is being talked about.
    - randomdata 2y ago
      I was around (working remotely, even) before anyone had ever heard of standups. Back then, developers were excited enough about their work that they would share what they were working on by their own accord. How did we get to the point where we determined that the only way to get anything out of developers was to setup a meeting to force it out? Telling them they must provide a status update on Slack instead is ultimately just a different cartoon character on the same basic bandaid – What is the actual problem here?
      - polishdude20 2y ago
        It could be the feeling that nobody cares about your work. I don't give status updates naturally because I don't usually feel anybody cares or needs that info other than managers or PM's
        randomdata 2y ago
        I mean, sure, outside of managers, there is no reason for anyone to care. That's literally why the developers have managers working for them: To have someone keep tabs on what is going on so they don't have to. But I mean with respect to managers. The collaboration with them used to be exciting. What changed?
- randomdata 2y ago
  > I have never in my life met a professional who sits on their hands for 23 hours... I will if there is a regularly scheduled meeting to discuss such matters. If the company is fine with you taking the day off, take it!
randomdata 2y ago
I'm skeptical that there is anything of value communicated in just 15 minutes when you have more than one speaker and without a very specific agenda. At most you're going to get a brief status update, but that is pointless information as it already known by way of the commit log.
- candiddevmike 2y ago
  And then there's a "parking lot attendant" ready to kill useful/interesting discussions "in the interest of everyone's time".
- knallfrosch 2y ago
  Nothing of importance is happening in the code base. What's important are blockers like inability to implement something, missing permissions, awaiting external communication, freshly detected requirements that need a decision, absences etc pp
  - randomdata 2y ago
    Everyone will already know about the blocker as soon as it happens. Reasserting it again at a regularly scheduled meeting would be even sillier than regurgitating the commit log. At least there is a slim chance someone hasn't kept up with the commit log. There is no chance of someone not being aware of blockers by the time the standup comes around.
  - mdaniel 2y ago
    > freshly detected requirements that need a decision Oh, in that case one should definitely wait 23 hours to bring that to anyone's attention, and for sure an (allegedly) 15 minute meeting is a great place to get requirements > absences Uh-huh, go ahead and include births and puppy adoptions, too; I can see that you and the Certified Scrum Master™ have obviously attended the same workshops on Team Health
- polishdude20 2y ago
  There are so many stand-ups I've been in where my coworkers would say what they've been working on and none of it would apply to me or my work and vice versa. It was more for the manager to hear what's being worked on. I think status updates should just be async in your slack channel
ChrisKingWebDev 2y ago
I like async standups on slack. Everyone just post what you are doing today, and if anyone has any questions they can follow up.

mdaniel 2y ago

See, I have almost the opposite opinion: it costs more interruption and "life stupidity" to have 7 people stand up, assemble, stop talking about sports, go around the room saying "no blockers," go get a pastry, go back to their desks, unlock their workstations, try to remember what the hell they were trying to do before all that dumbness. All of that to just hear the exact same thing any sane person who gave a shit could have read on a report emailed to them that morning, or -- more common in my experience -- that they would have read in the Mattermost/Slack/Teams/Zulip from the past day If one wants a status report, fine, have one periodically. But don't vaporize 30 minutes a day times 7 people just to go around the room talking. What a 1950s concept holy shit I have never in my life met a professional who sits on their hands for 23 hours waiting to say "uh, I have a blocker, but wanted to save it for this magic 15 minutes to ask for help." Yes, fine, n00bs do that, and that's what TFA was saying that interns need supervision, who knew.

theideaofcoffee 2y ago
Hard agree. It's all just devolved into cargo cult nonsense, follow the process, to parrot what they think large orgs are doing. And if you have an adequately competent culture, those noobs aren't going to be left hanging, they're going to learn that it's ok to ask to help get unblocked, and that's what should be taught. And yeah, I also can't agree more with your assessment about status reports being this relic from the past. What is this? The military? "SITREP. NOW!" Such a waste of breath, time, human life.
- polishdude20 2y ago
  I feel like in a remote culture, stand-ups are kind of playing double duty. Both as a status reporting time and a team-vuuldinf socialization time. I feel we should separate these two things into async slack status reports and them regularly maybe bi weekly 30 minute team building meetings where no work is being talked about.
  - randomdata 2y ago
    I was around (working remotely, even) before anyone had ever heard of standups. Back then, developers were excited enough about their work that they would share what they were working on by their own accord. How did we get to the point where we determined that the only way to get anything out of developers was to setup a meeting to force it out? Telling them they must provide a status update on Slack instead is ultimately just a different cartoon character on the same basic bandaid – What is the actual problem here?
    - polishdude20 2y ago
      It could be the feeling that nobody cares about your work. I don't give status updates naturally because I don't usually feel anybody cares or needs that info other than managers or PM's
      - randomdata 2y ago
        I mean, sure, outside of managers, there is no reason for anyone to care. That's literally why the developers have managers working for them: To have someone keep tabs on what is going on so they don't have to. But I mean with respect to managers. The collaboration with them used to be exciting. What changed?
randomdata 2y ago
> I have never in my life met a professional who sits on their hands for 23 hours... I will if there is a regularly scheduled meeting to discuss such matters. If the company is fine with you taking the day off, take it!

randomdata 2y ago

I'm skeptical that there is anything of value communicated in just 15 minutes when you have more than one speaker and without a very specific agenda. At most you're going to get a brief status update, but that is pointless information as it already known by way of the commit log.

candiddevmike 2y ago
And then there's a "parking lot attendant" ready to kill useful/interesting discussions "in the interest of everyone's time".
knallfrosch 2y ago
Nothing of importance is happening in the code base. What's important are blockers like inability to implement something, missing permissions, awaiting external communication, freshly detected requirements that need a decision, absences etc pp
- randomdata 2y ago
  Everyone will already know about the blocker as soon as it happens. Reasserting it again at a regularly scheduled meeting would be even sillier than regurgitating the commit log. At least there is a slim chance someone hasn't kept up with the commit log. There is no chance of someone not being aware of blockers by the time the standup comes around.
- mdaniel 2y ago
  > freshly detected requirements that need a decision Oh, in that case one should definitely wait 23 hours to bring that to anyone's attention, and for sure an (allegedly) 15 minute meeting is a great place to get requirements > absences Uh-huh, go ahead and include births and puppy adoptions, too; I can see that you and the Certified Scrum Master™ have obviously attended the same workshops on Team Health
polishdude20 2y ago
There are so many stand-ups I've been in where my coworkers would say what they've been working on and none of it would apply to me or my work and vice versa. It was more for the manager to hear what's being worked on. I think status updates should just be async in your slack channel

ChrisKingWebDev 2y ago

I like async standups on slack. Everyone just post what you are doing today, and if anyone has any questions they can follow up.