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Several people detained in Switzerland over death in a 'suicide capsule'
- xela79 2y agoso a death in a suicide capsule? What's next "swiss police detain several people in connection with suspected birth in fertility clinic"
- euroderf 2y agoThe capsule looks like a coffin from a sci-fi series, the kind of coffin that gets ejected into deep space. Is this intentional ?
- Workaccount2 2y agoAssisted suicide is one of those things that makes perfect logical sense, but is hamstrung by a common lizard brain reaction we all have. One of those things people don't like, or feels icky, and they have no idea why they feel that way.
- gruez 2y ago>but is hamstrung by a common lizard brain reaction we all have. One of those things people don't like, or feels icky, and they have no idea why they feel that way. You clearly missed all the discourse about MAID in Canada, where people accused the government/medical care system of pushing people into committing suicide so they'd be less of a burden on the medical system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Canada#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Canada#Criticism
- blueflow 2y agoThis is not countering the lizard brain statement. People are are against assisted suicide even without knowing that Canada thing.
- 0x1ceb00da 2y agoSo the lizard brain was right after all.
- costcopizza 2y agoWhat I immediately thought as well.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- OgsyedIE 2y agoWith over 50,000 euthanasias carried out in Canada to date, has anybody assessed whether they are disproportionately prescribed to certain demographics or not? If they are equally distributed then it's unlikely to be coercive in nature but if there is coercion then the proportion of usage by demographic is unlikely to match those demographic's respective proportions in the total Canadian population.
- gruez 2y agoThe point isn't that assisted suicide as implemented in canada is objectively bad, it's that it's extremely ignorant and uncharitable to paint all opposition to assisted suicide as "common lizard brain reaction" and "people don't like, or feels icky, and they have no idea why they feel that way".
- emptiestplace 2y agoThat's most of it, though. Also, who cares about being charitable towards folks who would deny others compassionate care?
- myrmidon 2y agoThat does not sound viable to me at all. How would you distinguish between the government coercing a demographic into suicide and that demographic just having a higher-than-average predisposition for it? E.g. people with depression or chronic illness/pain.
- bbor 2y agoWell that's where it gets tricky -- what variables are you allowed to control for in this analysis? Not to spoil anyone, but this is what Soylent Green is about: people on the edges of society aren't actively coerced into euthenasia, but the presence of a more abstract level of coercion is made clear. In terms of contemporary Canada, what if First Nations people end up using it much more often because they have much higher rates of poverty and drug abuse in their communities? On an individual bodily autonomy level that feels like fair game, but on a societal level the injustice is blatant.
- aliasxneo 2y agoJordan Peterson recently did a pretty harrowing interview with Kelsi Sheren on this topic. You can see a clip of it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YYxOfwrsrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YYxOfwrsrU. I say harrowing because silently being water-boarded to death sounds like one of the most awful ways to die.
- BobaFloutist 2y agoEven if you, personally, find Jordan Peterson credible, surely you understand that most people won't? Are you using an extremely controversial source on purpose, to prove some sort of point, or are you genuinely unaware of his cultural position?
- aliasxneo 2y agoWell, that's an interesting point. Have I committed a cultural taboo by posting a video of him here? I assumed HN was a place that talked about the content of a discussion, regardless of their opinion on the person running the interview. Have I misinterpreted this? Personally, I don't find myself not watching the content of someone just because they say things I disagree with or the world has tried to cancel them. Every now and then I'll watch Peterson's podcast if he's interviewing someone I'm interested in hearing from, but it's not like he takes up a large part of my attention. I'm still a little bit taken aback that I'm here on HN having to account for merely posting a YouTube link.
- snakeyjake 2y ago[flagged]
- aliasxneo 2y agoUnfortunately, you've not contributed much to furthering any knowledge here since it's all just speculation in a mocking and demeaning tone. I was slightly excited to see a lengthy response, hoping for some substantiated counter-arguments, but it appears to have just enraged you to the point of using very visceral and divisive language. Unfortunate. For what it's worth, I am a Christian and your choice of words come across as highly offensive. Contrary to your belief, I have no interest in inserting myself into your life. I'm apolitical at best and gave up on politics a long time ago. To respond to at least one point, I believe the point that she was making was a lack of awareness of the method of death. Her point has nothing to do with how people die of cancer, but that people agreeing to MAID did not have all of the necessary information to make that decision due to this being omitted. I'm happy to see some counter-evidence that she's lying and all of this is made up.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- mensetmanusman 2y agoYou also see intelligent folks suffer from the curse of knowledge when discussing the topic. They assume that half the population isn’t below average when it comes to intelligence. It’s similar to the analogy that crime would go down if every human had a gun, but the analogy fails because of human flaws. Assisted suicide will always be abused; mentally ill will be killed; kids who want more tax savings will push the button, etc.
- acover 2y agoWhy is assisting someone mentally ill wrong?
- renewiltord 2y agoFor the obvious reason that they may not be of sound mind to make the choice you’re “assisting” them with.
- acover 2y agoCanada is planning on giving the mentally ill access to maid in 2027. Most mentally ill people are still perfectly capable of making decisions and you need the approval of 2 doctors.
- mensetmanusman 2y agoMost mental illness is also temporary.
- naming_the_user 2y agoChesterton's fence. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean there is no reason. Sometimes it's a vestigial evolutionary thing, sometimes it isn't. A lot of "intelligent" people get caught up in this way.
- myrmidon 2y agoI feel this is an unfair characterization; there are a lot of very good reasons to argue against assisted suicide and to avoid normalizing suicide in general: There is always the potential for those mechanisms to be abused, making it taboo instead is the best prevention you can have for this. There is also the problem that suicide is a very final decision; people regret their choices (often years later) all the time, opening the suicide-door would lead invariably to cases where people throw away the rest of their life even though it would've had immeasurable value to them later had they lived on. Normalizing suicide in general could also lead to societal changes where death is the expected/desired outcome, and people are basically compelled by group dynamics, even in situations where we would absolutely not see this as justified or desirable currently (i.e. people suiciding because they killed their child in an accident).
- hilux 2y ago> making it taboo instead is the best prevention I can see that you have never worked in suicide prevention.
- svieira 2y agoSome act that is recognized as bad by society does not stop happening - it simply ensures that members of that society are aware of the badness of the act. This has a deterrent effect because people do not choose a bad act for its own sake while people will choose neutral or good acts for the sake of the act. Recognizing something as so bad as to be "out of the pale" does not mean that people will not talk about their desire to do it. That depends on a different societal measure - how willing are people to be open about who they really are and what they are experiencing in the moment.
- eth0up 2y agoIt's probably already extent, but this gives me the idea of an open source suicide prevention platform, where struggling people can reach out to a network of non governmental real humans that, differing from ther perceived rest of the world, have the time, genuine concern and willingness to try to help. There's an enormous deficit of kindness out there, else we're brilliant at making it appear so. And I think I agree with your comment. Making it taboo might among other unintended things, increase the allure through rebellion or breaking the rules of those who inspired the will to die.
- nineplay 2y agoBut it also suffers from people who insist it makes perfect 'logical' sense though they've never been confronted with the situation and still have a notion of 'logical thinking as though there's some perfect Spock-like way of viewing the world. There is no 'logical/emotional' divide in the way humans make decisions and the belief is almost nonsensical.
- jajko 2y agoWhat a weird wording > Switzerland does not allow euthanasia, which involves health care practitioners killing patients with a lethal injection at their request and in specific circumstances. And next line: >Switzerland is among the only countries in the world where foreigners can travel to legally end their lives, and has a number of organizations that are dedicated to helping people kill themselves. I can attest euthanasia is alive and well here, people travel great distances to end their misery here. My wife is a doctor here and this topic is not unknown, she handled that paperwork for few of her patients.
- wahnfrieden 2y agoGodard famously used these services recently
- crampong 2y agonot really, you can't euthanise (kill) someone but you can help them die, which the article points out - i.e. you can give someone a method to kill themselves with but you can't administer it to them > Swiss law allows assisted suicide so long as the person takes his or her life with no “external assistance”
- KPGv2 2y agoEuthanasia and suicide are not the same thing. - euthanasia is when someone kills you - suicide is when you kill yourself
- threatofrain 2y agoIMO that’s the same thing. Suicide by cop is not euthanasia. In our older years we often need someone’s help to do stuff, but insofar as the act facilitates our agency then it should be understood as our own action.
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- nerdjon 2y ago
- 4star3star 2y agoThey ought to make this thing a 2-seater so a loved one with an oxygen mask can sit next to you and hold your hand.
- euroderf 2y agoThis is important, actually. Full points for bringing this up.
- M95D 2y agoWhy not make it a mask for the suicide. I never understood why they made it a full body capsule.
- tommiegannert 2y agoSpeaking of, here is a little short on that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9MAf245Yag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9MAf245Yag (suicide topic.)
- microtherion 2y agoThe company is actually working on one, but with the idea of a couple ending their lives together.
- eth0up 2y agoExit International [1] is an interesting organization. I studied it for an old college paper and briefly immersed myself in the general subject of euthanasia, which is a pretty big topic. One thing I distinctly remember is the 'quality of death' rating system, where pentobarbital sodium ranks highest, with inert gas asphyxiation possibly second. I learned too, the European (Dutch?) Holders of the patent prohibit its use for judicial homicide, which has resulted in some pretty grotesque botched execution efforts with alternative methods. I worked for a guy with an Exit International dog tag DNR necklace. We were discussing the subject of Right to Die when I mentioned the organization and his eyes grew as he lifted it from his chest to show me proudly. In Switzerland, there is Dignitas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignitas_(non-profit_organisation) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignitas_(non-profit_organis... 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit_International https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit_International Edit: For anyone considering pursuing euthanasia via suicide tank with a terminal condition, or even without, consider hopping in an isolation tank (or Samadhi) first. Lots of potential for transcendence there, or worst case, discovery and fun.
- ur-whale 2y agoTerry Pratchett came to Switzerland to help film a documentary on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Pratchett:_Choosing_to_Die https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Pratchett:_Choosing_to_D...
- eth0up 2y agoThat was a powerful docu. I remember feeling unwell for weeks proceeding. Some may have very different perspectives, but it was exceedingly sad to me. However, recommended.
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago[flagged]
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- hypeatei 2y agoThese conversations usually turn into philosophical or religious arguments around life. My opinion is that suicide is completely valid and should not be stigmatized or illegal. Making it "off limits" and scary is how you isolate and drive people towards more unreliable and violent methods of killing themselves. Yes, death is very sad and uncomfortable but it's a part of life. Whether we leave at 25 or 80 is still equally sad but I don't see it any different. It should be our choice.
- arkey 2y agoDon't you think this could quickly devolve into legitimising suicide as something normal and valid, as opposed to something that should be avoided, through proper care, support and help?
- illiac786 2y agoNo. Death is already something that is mostly undesirable, I don’t think making “death by suicide” more undesirable than other types of deaths helps in any way. If someone is sick, he will tend to get treatment for his sickness, be it mental or not. If someone refuses to treat himself (and this happens a lot for non-mental sickness), there is anyway little one can do. Finally, I think looking at where the world is hurling toward and why, I feel it should be accepted by all that some individuals want to commit suicide as an altruistic gesture.
- tim333 2y agoI think maybe a way of dealing with that would be to require the person to chat to a qualified therapist about it for a couple of one hour sessions before hand. That way the people who were temporarily depressed could be helped out and the ones with something like terminal cancer could go ahead.
- bwestergard 2y agoIf criminalization drives people toward worse methods, then I see how it would make sense to stop criminalization if we assume it doesn't affect the suicide rate. But are you confident that stigma doesn't decrease the rate of suicide? If you believe it does, but still object to stigmatization, why?
- svieira 2y agoEvery time I see one of these stories I'm reminded that the Nazis started by exterminating the unfit [1] - the mentally unstable, the elderly, etc. Only once they had that program well in hand did the Nazis move on to removing others who were (in the Nazis assessment) a "burden to society". The danger here is that we're saying "there is a right to control how and when you die" but I have never seen anyone articulate an actual moral theory that allows for self-ending but does not also allow for other-ending (and the heart-rending stories that encourage allowing suicide only require the addition of "and she couldn't communicate her wishes" to cross over from supporting suicide to supporting euthanasia). Baring which, allowing suicide is allowing euthanasia. And allowing euthanasia is allowing coerced euthanasia. [1]: https://hmh.org/event/medical-ethics-and-the-holocaust-how-healing-becomes-killing-eugenics-euthanasia-and-extermination/ https://hmh.org/event/medical-ethics-and-the-holocaust-how-h... & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics
- s1artibartfast 2y ago>I have never seen anyone articulate an actual moral theory that allows for self-ending but does not also allow for other-ending. What do you mean by "other ending"? Do you mean non-consensual ending (murder) or consensual ending (euthanasia). The fact that someone can be coerced into taking action themselves is a simple fact of life. It is always a possibility with suicide or euthanasia. Moral theory does not need to split hairs on the probability of that coercion occurring. You can simply say it is moral for someone to decide to end their life , and either do it themselves or get help. You can also hold it immoral to coerce someone into death. Morality does not depend if those standards will be perfectly upheld by humanity. Moral standards never are.
- 542354234235 2y ago>I have never seen anyone articulate an actual moral theory that allows for self-ending but does not also allow for other-ending. An individual should have the right to control their own life and their own body, including choosing to end that life. When people have freedom to choose, they may make choices you do not agree with or do not like or that you believe is a bad choice. Being able to choose for oneself is not basically the same as allowing someone else to force you to do something.
- ikgdeeg 2y ago[flagged]
- dang 2y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41637779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41637779.
- gambiting 2y agoI'm so confused by your comparison. Children cannot consent, which is where this argument ends. Whether they are harmed by a sexual act or not is not really relevant in the slightest - they cannot consent to it which makes it statutory rape. In case of voluntary ending your own life - we are talking about consenting adults(or at least I hope we are!). >>Are you unswayed by testimonials of suicide survivors who say they immediately regretted the decision? Look, we can both play the emotional game - are you unswayed by the testimonials of people living in lifelong debiliating pain and suffering who are not given any legal way to end their own suffering? Someone who is paralyzed in every way other than blinking their eyes is telling you that pure existence is suffering and they want their life to end - you're going to stand in front of them and say "no, you're not allowed to"? You'd be stronger than most of us I guess. >>Can you imagine an opioid epidemic level of commission based kickbacks but for suicide booths? No, I actually can't. >>Sad? Pay us to kill you! If you can't imagine any other reason why people want to kill themselves other than being sad then I don't know what to tell you.
- ikgdeeg 2y agoI chose to reply to this comment because OP said: > These conversations usually turn into philosophical or religious arguments around life. I feel this is an absurd argument, as I listed, there are plenty of reasons to push back on this outside the purview of philosophy or religion. For instance, my mention of the predatory history of some medical interventions. And > My opinion is that suicide is completely valid and should not be stigmatized or illegal. OP said “completely valid” and I would argue in reality everyone has a “line”, and I was using extreme examples to illuminate that we all have this line and it is more productive to discuss where it lies than to assume we hold the only rationale position. It worked because you started to draw your line. Namely, your > are you unswayed by the testimonials of people living in lifelong debiliating pain and suffering who are not given any legal way to end their own suffering? Someone who is paralyzed in every way other than blinking their eyes is telling you that pure existence is suffering and they want their life to end - you're going to stand in front of them and say "no, you're not allowed to"? And again, > you can't imagine any other reason why people want to kill themselves other than being sad then I don't know what to tell you. So you disagree with the OPs “completely valid” and feel it should be valid under carefully considered circumstances? So where do you draw the line there? Only for sufferers of chronic pain? What would you tell to a sad but otherwise healthy person who elects to get the procedure? Also, do you have resources for these testimonials? Or statistics on if they are more or less common than those that I mentioned? > No, I actually can't. Then you are willfully ignorant. There are so many examples of predatory medicine and advertising. Why would this intervention be free from the barbs of human nature? What about suicide booths exempts them from enshittification?