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Sex is all religious fundamentalists can wrap their heads around, because their small, rigid, hetero-normative worldview cannot condone or understand the spectr

Sex is all religious fundamentalists can wrap their heads around, because their small, rigid, hetero-normative worldview cannot condone or understand the spectrum of unique beauty that is gender identity. The structure and forms of communication kids have at their fingertips these days provides plenty of ways to explore these topics, unfortunately mixed in with low quality or possibly dangerous content. I think those who push back hard against these topics are accelerating a counter-reaction, and I'm here for it. This is a weird thing to obsess against.

surgical_fire 2y ago
I am not at all a religious fundamentalist. Actually an atheist, and I am all support for people being whatever they want to be. It's your life, it is your right to be happy the way you want to be, gender identity and all. But I really don't want that being pushed into my daughter at a young age, not until she can mount her own idea of what she is. Much in the same way I don't want religion being pushed into her from a young age, not until she can have an idea of how she views the world.
- spaceribs 2y ago
  In the other direction, have you thought about if the gender binary is being pushed on your child?
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    Yes, of course. But some things requires being practical. The girl has to be dressed. She needs her hair combed and styled. I buy her toys. And yes, it is all very cute and girly. But she is also still a baby, and the wife would hang me by the balls if I bought our baby daughter boy's clothes. Not that I would anyway. It melts my heart seeing her in her tiny little dresses, with cute headbands and all. The practical part is that this is the societal default. And while she is a child there will be many benefits in just following that. As I said, she will have space to explore themes of sexuality and gender once her age is more suitable. Until then, she is the little princess.
    - spaceribs 2y ago
      That's the challenge being presented, why isn't the societal default to call a child "They" until they identify with a particular pronoun? Have you asked them if they like dresses over pants? Do they like trains over dolls? I'm not criticizing your parenting style or approach, but this should be about about them, not society or you or your wife. They might go through a phase where they prefer being called or boy, or an ostrich, or reject every label, and it doesn't have to be a crisis, it's just a normal part of growing up.
      - surgical_fire 2y ago
        > That's the challenge being presented, why isn't the societal default to call a child "They" until they identify with a particular pronoun? I don't know. I don't make the rules. I just follow. What I can tell is that challenging the rules come at a price. I don't want to impose that price on my daughter. If she wants to challenge societal rules (against my advice) when she is old enough to do so, she will have my support. > Have you asked them if they like dresses over pants? Do they like trains over dolls? Asking her things now is foolish. She is only months old. If she prefers playing with cars and trains rather than dolls, I will buy her cars and trains. To be frank, I think all those are lame. I will try to nudge her into liking puzzles, board games, painting, that sort of stuff. And later on videogames. I dream of the day she will be old enough to play Mario Kart with me and beat me. > I'm not criticizing your parenting style or approach, but this should be about about them, not society or you or your wife I agree, but that will be at an age when she can meaningfully build her own idea of self. Right now she cries when her nappies are dirty, and likes when I make her sleep walking arond the bedroom holding her against my chest. I don't think she can mount an intellectual defense about her own gender identity, or about religion, or any such complex subjects.
        spaceribs 2y ago
        Yeah I will admit that considering you have a daughter literally a month old, they can't yet express their individuality and separateness from others, but I think you should be prepared for these challenging questions far more early on than you'd expect. Many parents aren't assigning a gender at birth. Many have same-sex parents. Many parents are hateful, and have kids who they've taught their hatred towards. "I don't know. I don't make the rules. I just follow." isn't something I'm personally comfortable with or passing on to my children. There's consequences to following the rules as much as breaking them (if they are even rules to begin with).
- voidUpdate 2y ago
  Is the ability for your daughter to read about gender identity and sexual orientation pushing it on her? The bans are targeting books that even have characters in them that are non-standard, not only books that are telling your child to become trans and gay (Are there even any books that are doing that? I've never seen any)
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    > Is the ability for your daughter to read about gender identity and sexual orientation pushing it on her? Yes. That is the literal definition of having information pushed on to her. The ideas contained within whatever book would not pop up on her mind out of thin air, they would be contained in the text. As a father, who is responsible for her health, well-being, education, happiness and future, I want her to occupy her mind with things more suitable for a child. I won't give her the Bible for the same reason. > The bans are targeting books that even have characters in them that are non-standard, not only books that are telling your child to become trans and gay (Are there even any books that are doing that? I've never seen any) I don't know. And honestly, I don't care. She has the world to explore at her young age, and there is so much more in the universe. I want to leave themes of sexual orientation and gender identity to be explored at a later stage, when her body and mind are more suited to such things. If at that point she wants to be whatever, she will have my support. I want her happiness after all.
    - falcolas 2y ago
      > The ideas contained within whatever book would not pop up on her mind out of thin air You say that as if your child won't hear about these topics from their peers. Some of whom will have lesbian or gay parents. Some of whom will be trans. All you're doing is making your child work off hearsay instead of accurate information. > I want to leave themes of sexual orientation and gender identity to be explored at a later stage Really? Then why are you dressing them in stereotypically girl clothing, calling them "her", and exposing them to the heterosexual relationship between you and your wife? Exposing a child to something doesn't make them that thing. The proof for that is very simple: Exposing a girl to a boy doesn't make her a boy. Exposing a child to a heterosexual relationship doesn't make them heterosexual. Instead, exposing children to drag queens and gays and lesbians and asexuals and trans individuals means that there's a the greater the chance they will choose to continue to live if they are something other than a CIS gendered girl attracted to boys. It means they won't feel like they're broken or wrong or hated. Suicide is a very real problem for children encouraged to remain in the closet. Exposing children to information is how they learn. It's better if the information is accurate. > I want her happiness after all. Apparently only if it matches your definition of who "she" is, or after you feel that "she" is "old enough" (whatever TF that means).

surgical_fire 2y ago

I am not at all a religious fundamentalist. Actually an atheist, and I am all support for people being whatever they want to be. It's your life, it is your right to be happy the way you want to be, gender identity and all. But I really don't want that being pushed into my daughter at a young age, not until she can mount her own idea of what she is. Much in the same way I don't want religion being pushed into her from a young age, not until she can have an idea of how she views the world.

spaceribs 2y ago
In the other direction, have you thought about if the gender binary is being pushed on your child?
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  Yes, of course. But some things requires being practical. The girl has to be dressed. She needs her hair combed and styled. I buy her toys. And yes, it is all very cute and girly. But she is also still a baby, and the wife would hang me by the balls if I bought our baby daughter boy's clothes. Not that I would anyway. It melts my heart seeing her in her tiny little dresses, with cute headbands and all. The practical part is that this is the societal default. And while she is a child there will be many benefits in just following that. As I said, she will have space to explore themes of sexuality and gender once her age is more suitable. Until then, she is the little princess.
  - spaceribs 2y ago
    That's the challenge being presented, why isn't the societal default to call a child "They" until they identify with a particular pronoun? Have you asked them if they like dresses over pants? Do they like trains over dolls? I'm not criticizing your parenting style or approach, but this should be about about them, not society or you or your wife. They might go through a phase where they prefer being called or boy, or an ostrich, or reject every label, and it doesn't have to be a crisis, it's just a normal part of growing up.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      > That's the challenge being presented, why isn't the societal default to call a child "They" until they identify with a particular pronoun? I don't know. I don't make the rules. I just follow. What I can tell is that challenging the rules come at a price. I don't want to impose that price on my daughter. If she wants to challenge societal rules (against my advice) when she is old enough to do so, she will have my support. > Have you asked them if they like dresses over pants? Do they like trains over dolls? Asking her things now is foolish. She is only months old. If she prefers playing with cars and trains rather than dolls, I will buy her cars and trains. To be frank, I think all those are lame. I will try to nudge her into liking puzzles, board games, painting, that sort of stuff. And later on videogames. I dream of the day she will be old enough to play Mario Kart with me and beat me. > I'm not criticizing your parenting style or approach, but this should be about about them, not society or you or your wife I agree, but that will be at an age when she can meaningfully build her own idea of self. Right now she cries when her nappies are dirty, and likes when I make her sleep walking arond the bedroom holding her against my chest. I don't think she can mount an intellectual defense about her own gender identity, or about religion, or any such complex subjects.
      - spaceribs 2y ago
        Yeah I will admit that considering you have a daughter literally a month old, they can't yet express their individuality and separateness from others, but I think you should be prepared for these challenging questions far more early on than you'd expect. Many parents aren't assigning a gender at birth. Many have same-sex parents. Many parents are hateful, and have kids who they've taught their hatred towards. "I don't know. I don't make the rules. I just follow." isn't something I'm personally comfortable with or passing on to my children. There's consequences to following the rules as much as breaking them (if they are even rules to begin with).
voidUpdate 2y ago
Is the ability for your daughter to read about gender identity and sexual orientation pushing it on her? The bans are targeting books that even have characters in them that are non-standard, not only books that are telling your child to become trans and gay (Are there even any books that are doing that? I've never seen any)
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  > Is the ability for your daughter to read about gender identity and sexual orientation pushing it on her? Yes. That is the literal definition of having information pushed on to her. The ideas contained within whatever book would not pop up on her mind out of thin air, they would be contained in the text. As a father, who is responsible for her health, well-being, education, happiness and future, I want her to occupy her mind with things more suitable for a child. I won't give her the Bible for the same reason. > The bans are targeting books that even have characters in them that are non-standard, not only books that are telling your child to become trans and gay (Are there even any books that are doing that? I've never seen any) I don't know. And honestly, I don't care. She has the world to explore at her young age, and there is so much more in the universe. I want to leave themes of sexual orientation and gender identity to be explored at a later stage, when her body and mind are more suited to such things. If at that point she wants to be whatever, she will have my support. I want her happiness after all.
  - falcolas 2y ago
    > The ideas contained within whatever book would not pop up on her mind out of thin air You say that as if your child won't hear about these topics from their peers. Some of whom will have lesbian or gay parents. Some of whom will be trans. All you're doing is making your child work off hearsay instead of accurate information. > I want to leave themes of sexual orientation and gender identity to be explored at a later stage Really? Then why are you dressing them in stereotypically girl clothing, calling them "her", and exposing them to the heterosexual relationship between you and your wife? Exposing a child to something doesn't make them that thing. The proof for that is very simple: Exposing a girl to a boy doesn't make her a boy. Exposing a child to a heterosexual relationship doesn't make them heterosexual. Instead, exposing children to drag queens and gays and lesbians and asexuals and trans individuals means that there's a the greater the chance they will choose to continue to live if they are something other than a CIS gendered girl attracted to boys. It means they won't feel like they're broken or wrong or hated. Suicide is a very real problem for children encouraged to remain in the closet. Exposing children to information is how they learn. It's better if the information is accurate. > I want her happiness after all. Apparently only if it matches your definition of who "she" is, or after you feel that "she" is "old enough" (whatever TF that means).