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>It also has a thing to navigate methods, but I have to use something called tags, which means a) I have to figure out what the hell that is Well. I'm not exac

>It also has a thing to navigate methods, but I have to use something called tags, which means a) I have to figure out what the hell that is Well. I'm not exactly old, but seeing someone say that about tags has made me feel rather ancient. There are better ways to navigate code than tags. For Emacs, for example, my setup uses Rope to navigate Python code.

notJim 14y ago
It doesn't seem like the main issue is age as much as that most people will be coming to VIM from either IDEs or editors that had built-in code-navigation features, so moving to something like vim involves the extra overhead of learning things like tags or rope even.
- heretohelp 14y ago
  There's definitely an age-gap here. People who grew up coding C had to learn to use ctags, whereas, people who start out in interpreted languages are much less likely to encounter such. >involves the extra overhead of learning things like tags or rope even. Rope has no learning overhead. It works the same as any IDE. You use the functionality it provides like "go-to definition" or refactoring. Tags are just a file you generate using a command and the editor uses it to provide a "go-to definition" faculty.
  - notJim 14y ago
    Jeeze, I don't know why this got acrimonious all of a sudden. That seems unnecessary. If I've insulted you in some way, then I apologize.
    - heretohelp 14y ago
      No insult intended or perceived. Edited my comment to better reflect the content and mood I wanted to convey. Thanks for the feedback.
  - notJim 14y ago
    It's funny, I grew up writing C++, but in an IDE. You're probably right that older people may have started programming before IDEs were commonplace (?). I've actually never liked using IDEs for interpreted languages, but have always used them for compiled languages. I'm talking specifically about tags, because it's the tool I'd need to use to get goto-anything functionality in vim using command-t or ctrlp. Whenever there's a debate about something like ST2 or an IDE vs vim/emacs, the argument is always “well you can do all that stuff with vim, just install x, y and z plugins", and I was making the point that with ST2, the out-of-the-box goto-anything functionality is really excellent. I love vim, and can't see myself ever going back on that, but I certainly appreciated with ST2 that the baked-in, absolutely-zero-effort-required goto-anything functionality was really excellent.
    - heretohelp 14y ago
      >Whenever there's a debate about something like ST2 or an IDE vs vim/emacs, the argument is always “well you can do all that stuff with vim, just install x, y and z plugins", That might be true for vim, but it isn't for Emacs. Most of what you need is built-in, with the occasional plugin only coming in when you want hardcore IDE functionality or something uber language specific. It supports virtually every language, VCS, use-case, etc. out of the box though. Has it ever occurred to you that people who've been programming for decades have a reason for putting forth the advantages of editors like Emacs and vim?
      - notJim 14y ago
        > Has it ever occurred to you that people who've been programming for decades have a reason for putting forth the advantages of editors like Emacs and vim? Of course--I stated clearly that I'm a vim user and that I love it, and couldn't see myself going back. But I still appreciate the out of the box functionality and ease-of-use of ST2.
        heretohelp 14y ago
        You should try Emacs if you like out of the box functionality and ease-of-use. It's modeless like most other editors (unlike vim). You can bolt vi/vim on top of it if you really want the modal editing though.

notJim 14y ago

It doesn't seem like the main issue is age as much as that most people will be coming to VIM from either IDEs or editors that had built-in code-navigation features, so moving to something like vim involves the extra overhead of learning things like tags or rope even.

heretohelp 14y ago
There's definitely an age-gap here. People who grew up coding C had to learn to use ctags, whereas, people who start out in interpreted languages are much less likely to encounter such. >involves the extra overhead of learning things like tags or rope even. Rope has no learning overhead. It works the same as any IDE. You use the functionality it provides like "go-to definition" or refactoring. Tags are just a file you generate using a command and the editor uses it to provide a "go-to definition" faculty.
- notJim 14y ago
  Jeeze, I don't know why this got acrimonious all of a sudden. That seems unnecessary. If I've insulted you in some way, then I apologize.
  - heretohelp 14y ago
    No insult intended or perceived. Edited my comment to better reflect the content and mood I wanted to convey. Thanks for the feedback.
- notJim 14y ago
  It's funny, I grew up writing C++, but in an IDE. You're probably right that older people may have started programming before IDEs were commonplace (?). I've actually never liked using IDEs for interpreted languages, but have always used them for compiled languages. I'm talking specifically about tags, because it's the tool I'd need to use to get goto-anything functionality in vim using command-t or ctrlp. Whenever there's a debate about something like ST2 or an IDE vs vim/emacs, the argument is always “well you can do all that stuff with vim, just install x, y and z plugins", and I was making the point that with ST2, the out-of-the-box goto-anything functionality is really excellent. I love vim, and can't see myself ever going back on that, but I certainly appreciated with ST2 that the baked-in, absolutely-zero-effort-required goto-anything functionality was really excellent.
  - heretohelp 14y ago
    >Whenever there's a debate about something like ST2 or an IDE vs vim/emacs, the argument is always “well you can do all that stuff with vim, just install x, y and z plugins", That might be true for vim, but it isn't for Emacs. Most of what you need is built-in, with the occasional plugin only coming in when you want hardcore IDE functionality or something uber language specific. It supports virtually every language, VCS, use-case, etc. out of the box though. Has it ever occurred to you that people who've been programming for decades have a reason for putting forth the advantages of editors like Emacs and vim?
    - notJim 14y ago
      > Has it ever occurred to you that people who've been programming for decades have a reason for putting forth the advantages of editors like Emacs and vim? Of course--I stated clearly that I'm a vim user and that I love it, and couldn't see myself going back. But I still appreciate the out of the box functionality and ease-of-use of ST2.
      - heretohelp 14y ago
        You should try Emacs if you like out of the box functionality and ease-of-use. It's modeless like most other editors (unlike vim). You can bolt vi/vim on top of it if you really want the modal editing though.