7 ms·

Even the aesthetic/art style varies tremendously - i.e. even the "big eyes" thing so often correlated with anime art isn't universal either. Can you have "West

Even the aesthetic/art style varies tremendously - i.e. even the "big eyes" thing so often correlated with anime art isn't universal either. Can you have "Western" anime? Some hardcore otakus scoff at the idea. If you made an animated version of Star Wars - is that anime? Is Avatar: The Last Airbender an anime? "Chinese anime" or "Korean anime"? Again, some would scoff at the idea. But what is all that Hoyoverse stuff? Or all those Korean webtoons (though that's really more comparable with manga - and the korean word "manhwa" uses the exact same Chinese characters as "manga").

Izkata 2y ago
> If you made an animated version of Star Wars - is that anime? Rather than "if", here's two instances of that idea I know of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Squad_Isekai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Squad_Isekai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Anime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Anime Edit: And it actually looks like some anime studios did get in on Star Wars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Visions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Visions
- dragontamer 2y ago
  ... Are you unaware of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Visions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Visions ??
  - Izkata 2y ago
    I was unaware, I'm not really a fan of that franchise
    - dragontamer 2y ago
      Yeah. The anime community has a lot of debate on these things. I guess it makes sense that not everyone is on the same page with regards to the eternal flame wars / arguments here. Avatar, Star Wars, even Boondocks comes up. I think My Adventures with Superman was Korean at least, but stylistically it's close to anime. --------- The one people may have forgotten about is RWBY, which was the famous Texas Anime (erm... Texas made anime-inspired art?) that split so many people with debates on 'Anime or Not'.
      - MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
        "The famous Texas anime" is King of the Hill. People in Japan argue over whether watching it is better with subs or dubs. It's a slice of life anime in all but drawing style and origin.
jwells89 2y ago
> Can you have "Western" anime? Some hardcore otakus scoff at the idea. There's not really anything stopping creative individuals who aren't Japanese from producing anime. The thing that many attempts miss (and I suspect what makes hardcores bristle) is that they tend to miss the point in one way or another, resulting in a product that might have many of the outward characteristics but ultimately misses the mark. In my opinion Avatar is actually pretty close. I've seen clips from various animated productions from France that also seem to capture a similar spirit.
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
> Can you have "Western" anime? I would definitely think that all the French-Japanese and Italo-Japanese coproductions of the 80s somehow qualify as western anime, yes. See for exemple Ulysses 31 and Esteban: Child of the Sun. Then you have things like Radiant which a “manga” by a French artist in French which was turned into an anime by a Japanese studio. I guess there probably is animation made in the typically Japanese somewhere. I can’t really help you there because I only read mangas and never watch adaptations (they are always strictly inferior to the material they adapt). So the only Japanese/Korean animation I watch is original content of which there is sadly very little.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
B-Con 2y ago
What I find the most interesting is that there is clearly something that makes anime stand out as being its own thing, distinct from the majority of other animated TV, but it's hard to put a finger on exactly what that attribute is and where to draw the line. The anime community has, for as long as I've been a part of it (13 years or so), decided that anime is "animation made in Japan". This heuristic has actually worked pretty well. But the lines are increasingly blurred. - Japanese produced shows are outsourcing some animation to China and Korea, and sometimes taking direct funding and story writing input from the USA. - Non-Japan produced shows are taking notes on what works, drawing on it for inspiration, and in rare recent cases even outsourcing animation directly to Japan. - There is a TON of money in gacha games, and the biggest "anime" titles some people may recognize are gacha games, butand the majority of those are run 100% by Chinese companies. Ironically, sometimes sending them over to Japan for the TV adaptation. Just like food: Italy may have "invented" pizza, but New York pizza is now its own thing.
- jwells89 2y ago
  > What I find the most interesting is that there is clearly something that makes anime stand out as being its own thing, distinct from the majority of other animated TV, but it's hard to put a finger on exactly what that attribute is and where to draw the line. On the higher quality end of the spectrum, I think one of the main differentiators is just how seriously the staff takes the production. They lean into the cinematography, storyboarding, directing, music, choreography, etc just as much or more as one might expect from western live action prestige TV. This is exceedingly rare in TV animation in the US and is only really seen in our animated movies (which are rare these days, at least in 2D form). The other thing is that high quality anime is exceedingly good at building atmosphere and creating vibes. Half of the enjoyment of Cowboy Bebop for example is just basking in the ambience.
  - decafninja 2y ago
    Another aspect is that it was assumed virtually all animation outside of Japan was solely meant for young kids and the content reflected that. To be fair, most Japanese anime is also meant for kids and teens, but they were willing to explore content that would absolutely shock Western parents (violence, sex, nudity, as well as more nuanced stuff like sociopolitical commentary). Is this different today? I feel modern Japanese anime is more toned down compared to say, the 1990s, while non-Japanese animation has been “toned up” in content.
hiccuphippo 2y ago
I think it should be the other way around and we should call anime "animation". Anime is just the word Japan borrowed for animation, no need to borrow it back when English has a perfectly usable word for it already.
- dragontamer 2y ago
  Why not? Animes signature 'Big Eyes' are attributed to Astroboy (early 1950s anime) but the Astroboy style was clearly from Mickey Mouse. Similarly: One Piece / Luffys gears have been confirmed to be various powers that Tom and Jerry (the cartoon cat and mouse) have done over the decades with Gear 5 being a full on cartoon logic power up. The amount of play and borrowing from Japan to America and back to Japan and back to America is epic. Samurai films are inspired by Westerns. But then Star Wars was inspired by Samurai films. Bouncing back and forth between the two cultures is part of the fun of it all. Including borrowing words like anime, Isekai. Or Japan borrowing the letter 'H' (ecchi) from us with completely new meanings.

Izkata 2y ago

> If you made an animated version of Star Wars - is that anime? Rather than "if", here's two instances of that idea I know of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Squad_Isekai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Squad_Isekai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Anime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Anime Edit: And it actually looks like some anime studios did get in on Star Wars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Visions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Visions

dragontamer 2y ago
... Are you unaware of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Visions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Visions ??
- Izkata 2y ago
  I was unaware, I'm not really a fan of that franchise
  - dragontamer 2y ago
    Yeah. The anime community has a lot of debate on these things. I guess it makes sense that not everyone is on the same page with regards to the eternal flame wars / arguments here. Avatar, Star Wars, even Boondocks comes up. I think My Adventures with Superman was Korean at least, but stylistically it's close to anime. --------- The one people may have forgotten about is RWBY, which was the famous Texas Anime (erm... Texas made anime-inspired art?) that split so many people with debates on 'Anime or Not'.
    - MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
      "The famous Texas anime" is King of the Hill. People in Japan argue over whether watching it is better with subs or dubs. It's a slice of life anime in all but drawing style and origin.

jwells89 2y ago

> Can you have "Western" anime? Some hardcore otakus scoff at the idea. There's not really anything stopping creative individuals who aren't Japanese from producing anime. The thing that many attempts miss (and I suspect what makes hardcores bristle) is that they tend to miss the point in one way or another, resulting in a product that might have many of the outward characteristics but ultimately misses the mark. In my opinion Avatar is actually pretty close. I've seen clips from various animated productions from France that also seem to capture a similar spirit.

RandomThoughts3 2y ago

> Can you have "Western" anime? I would definitely think that all the French-Japanese and Italo-Japanese coproductions of the 80s somehow qualify as western anime, yes. See for exemple Ulysses 31 and Esteban: Child of the Sun. Then you have things like Radiant which a “manga” by a French artist in French which was turned into an anime by a Japanese studio. I guess there probably is animation made in the typically Japanese somewhere. I can’t really help you there because I only read mangas and never watch adaptations (they are always strictly inferior to the material they adapt). So the only Japanese/Korean animation I watch is original content of which there is sadly very little.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

B-Con 2y ago

What I find the most interesting is that there is clearly something that makes anime stand out as being its own thing, distinct from the majority of other animated TV, but it's hard to put a finger on exactly what that attribute is and where to draw the line. The anime community has, for as long as I've been a part of it (13 years or so), decided that anime is "animation made in Japan". This heuristic has actually worked pretty well. But the lines are increasingly blurred. - Japanese produced shows are outsourcing some animation to China and Korea, and sometimes taking direct funding and story writing input from the USA. - Non-Japan produced shows are taking notes on what works, drawing on it for inspiration, and in rare recent cases even outsourcing animation directly to Japan. - There is a TON of money in gacha games, and the biggest "anime" titles some people may recognize are gacha games, butand the majority of those are run 100% by Chinese companies. Ironically, sometimes sending them over to Japan for the TV adaptation. Just like food: Italy may have "invented" pizza, but New York pizza is now its own thing.

jwells89 2y ago
> What I find the most interesting is that there is clearly something that makes anime stand out as being its own thing, distinct from the majority of other animated TV, but it's hard to put a finger on exactly what that attribute is and where to draw the line. On the higher quality end of the spectrum, I think one of the main differentiators is just how seriously the staff takes the production. They lean into the cinematography, storyboarding, directing, music, choreography, etc just as much or more as one might expect from western live action prestige TV. This is exceedingly rare in TV animation in the US and is only really seen in our animated movies (which are rare these days, at least in 2D form). The other thing is that high quality anime is exceedingly good at building atmosphere and creating vibes. Half of the enjoyment of Cowboy Bebop for example is just basking in the ambience.
- decafninja 2y ago
  Another aspect is that it was assumed virtually all animation outside of Japan was solely meant for young kids and the content reflected that. To be fair, most Japanese anime is also meant for kids and teens, but they were willing to explore content that would absolutely shock Western parents (violence, sex, nudity, as well as more nuanced stuff like sociopolitical commentary). Is this different today? I feel modern Japanese anime is more toned down compared to say, the 1990s, while non-Japanese animation has been “toned up” in content.

hiccuphippo 2y ago

I think it should be the other way around and we should call anime "animation". Anime is just the word Japan borrowed for animation, no need to borrow it back when English has a perfectly usable word for it already.

dragontamer 2y ago
Why not? Animes signature 'Big Eyes' are attributed to Astroboy (early 1950s anime) but the Astroboy style was clearly from Mickey Mouse. Similarly: One Piece / Luffys gears have been confirmed to be various powers that Tom and Jerry (the cartoon cat and mouse) have done over the decades with Gear 5 being a full on cartoon logic power up. The amount of play and borrowing from Japan to America and back to Japan and back to America is epic. Samurai films are inspired by Westerns. But then Star Wars was inspired by Samurai films. Bouncing back and forth between the two cultures is part of the fun of it all. Including borrowing words like anime, Isekai. Or Japan borrowing the letter 'H' (ecchi) from us with completely new meanings.