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It's because anime is multi-genre and sub-genres of anime cater to basically every demographic. Anime includes masterpieces like Spirited Away, trashy harem /

• entropicdrifter 2y ago
  Jobless Reincarnation is simultaneously trashy and also prestige drama. I feel like you could have picked almost any other harem show and been better off for your example lol
  • Devorlon 2y ago
    I think Jobless Reincarnation is a perfect example because of its paedophilic undertones if not outright being so.
    • entropicdrifter 2y ago
      Jobless Reincarnation has a lot of fucked-up trashy aspects to it, but it also explores how those things fuck people up, why and how, and goes deep into character development and a realistic depiction of what healing from trauma (and people who haven't healed from trauma) looks like. There are a lot of harem anime out there that do not do that type of deeper character work and function solely as male power-fantasies. See, for instance, Tsukimitchi or Rosario X Vampire That was and still is my point
    • claudiawerner 2y ago
      'Pedophilic undertones' doesn't relate to 'trashy' or 'harem', even if you read the anime that way. In fact, it can be extremely interesting to see something which is so rarely portrayed or discussed in fiction, even fiction for adults. The reality of child abuse is neither solved nor rebuked by depictions or explorations of psychology in adult fiction.
      • mrsilencedogood 2y ago
        I don't even know what this show is, but I can guarantee you any pedo-related stuff in there is highly unlikely to be for the purpose of "depictions or explorations of psychology". Come on, don't try to kid me. It's there for the same reason all the other seinen anime have a ton of borderline softcore porn tropes in them.
        • claudiawerner 2y ago
          I don't really know how to respond to the idea that the fact anime includes fanservice means it can't deal with sensitive topics at the same time.
          • some_random 2y ago
            Why is the fanservice sexualized children?
            • mrsilencedogood 2y ago
              I don't know why I even bothered to try to push back, beyond the fact that these kind of "philosophers" plague the anime community. The pattern is very predictable. Tons and tons of ink spilled to try to explain why they're not a pedophile while not doing anything more than distracting from the original point and dithering endlessly. And nobody wants to push back because of it, so they take silence as complicit assent.
            • claudiawerner 2y ago
              In this case, it's not; but even if it were, does that limit the ability of a text to explore interesting themes? Why? I'd recommend reading deeper into the scholarly literature of sexual themes in anime and manga before assuming that fans necessarily interpret 'children' into the text. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639806 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26639806
    • dragontamer 2y ago
      So people know: I've chosen a highly controversial anime on purpose to prove that there's anime some people hate and other anime people love. I personally couldn't get very far into Jobless Reincarnation. So I'm on the haters side. But in any case, the controversies of this anime are well known.
      • Izkata 2y ago
        I actually didn't know there was any controversy around it, but this: > I personally couldn't get very far into Jobless Reincarnation. explains your choice. Based on how other modern isekais typically go, it definitely starts out looking like this one is going to go down a similar route, but it really doesn't. The overall character development for the main character is about him figuring out how to relate to others and develop healthy relationships instead of the fixations and fears he started with.
        • glandium 2y ago
          The interesting thing about Jobless Reincarnation is that, even though the Anime was a late comer in the Isekai genre, the original work, the online novel, is actually a precursor if not the starting point of the current wave of Isekai works.
        • dragontamer 2y ago
          Nah. It more or less went where I expected. It's a modern Fate/Stay Night. It took a lot of trash Isekai tropes but played them straight and dramatic. Like F/SN took your harem tropes and video game stats and crafted a magic system out of it... Jobless Reincarnation starts with panty thieves, sex scenes, voyeurism, a harem of three girlfriends and the tries to reverse engineer a story out of the tropes. It's good for what it is. But it doesn't change that it's fundamentally starting with so called trashy tropes. ------- It's clear that they're setting up a love triangle between the Red Head Tsundere hothead, the quiet traditional wife type, and his hot teacher who is a 100+ year old demon but looks like a teenager. Like, there's more merit to this than maybe I'm making fun of. Because the author tries really really hard to make these situations play out with how a real life person might react to these revelations. But that doesn't change the fact that I can smell these trash tropes from a mile away. Subjectively, I think Saber/Rin/Sakura of Fate/SN played out more realistically with their harem tropes than Jobless Reincarnations Roxy/Sylphie/Eris. There's the benefit that F/SN are three different universes so each waifu pick is a totally different story. Jobless Reincarnation is on the other hand separated out by many years. But it's bloody obvious that all three girlfriends are going to come back together later for your old school anime triangle drama. I guess that was what I liked with F/SN. The three girls were not yet another cheesy triangle.
    • vunderba 2y ago
      If you're head hunting for polarizing anime with borderline underage sexual objectification, you could have gone with the "That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime" anime - take one look at the clothing (or lack thereof) of Milim Nava. In before people furiously try to rationalize by saying, "Well sure she looks like she's a prepubescent 12 year but ACTUALLY she's 3000 years old", yeah okay sure - but as the saying goes "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...".
      • dragontamer 2y ago
        [dead]
      • ahazred8ta 2y ago
        "How not to summon a demon lord" has Krebskulm, a tween wearing a postage stamp sized outfit.
  • cultofmetatron 2y ago
    > I feel like you could have picked almost any other harem show and been better off for your example agreed. redo of the healer or bastard would fit "trashy male power fantasy" a lot better.
    • dragontamer 2y ago
      I mean, yes I wanted a Trashy shown for my example. But I also wanted... A good show with merits. I was optimizing on controversy with this pick. Looks like it mostly worked given the conflicting viewpoints that have come up. There's very well written drama in Jobless Reincarnation. But it is also paired up with a literally panty worshipping (holy artifact of Roxy) panty-thief.
• ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  It also can't be overlooked that the anime style is both highly flexible and also very easy to reproduce. Like I remember it being old hat to see books on "how to draw anime" when I was a kid, and anime didn't have nearly the presence it did in the west as it does now. I'm genuinely not trying to be a shithead or anything, it's just a style that lends itself well to industrialization and specialized tooling to speed up the process of creating. Unless you get into highly stylized executions, if you as a company just want to turn out a perfectly average and forgettable anime, you can do so at scale pretty easily, and the glut of artists looking for work means you don't have to pay a lot for the labor either. I have nothing against this but frankly as a creative it is slightly demoralizing to see just more and more consolidation and mechanization in industry. There's so little that feels genuinely creative anymore, and it feels like year over year the art people produce is crushed harder and harder into pre-made molds that do well on content algorithms. Maybe nobody else gives a shit.
• causal 2y ago
  Right, this article is lumping together a bunch of different things that are maybe loosely related because of anime as a style. The unstated thesis might just be surprise that this once-nerdy stuff has become mainstream at all and therefore has investment potential that was heretofore unrecognized.
  • deleted 2y ago
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• decafninja 2y ago
  Even the aesthetic/art style varies tremendously - i.e. even the "big eyes" thing so often correlated with anime art isn't universal either. Can you have "Western" anime? Some hardcore otakus scoff at the idea. If you made an animated version of Star Wars - is that anime? Is Avatar: The Last Airbender an anime? "Chinese anime" or "Korean anime"? Again, some would scoff at the idea. But what is all that Hoyoverse stuff? Or all those Korean webtoons (though that's really more comparable with manga - and the korean word "manhwa" uses the exact same Chinese characters as "manga").
  • Izkata 2y ago
    > If you made an animated version of Star Wars - is that anime? Rather than "if", here's two instances of that idea I know of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Squad_Isekai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Squad_Isekai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Anime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Anime Edit: And it actually looks like some anime studios did get in on Star Wars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Visions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Visions
    • dragontamer 2y ago
      ... Are you unaware of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Visions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Visions ??
      • Izkata 2y ago
        I was unaware, I'm not really a fan of that franchise
        • dragontamer 2y ago
          Yeah. The anime community has a lot of debate on these things. I guess it makes sense that not everyone is on the same page with regards to the eternal flame wars / arguments here. Avatar, Star Wars, even Boondocks comes up. I think My Adventures with Superman was Korean at least, but stylistically it's close to anime. --------- The one people may have forgotten about is RWBY, which was the famous Texas Anime (erm... Texas made anime-inspired art?) that split so many people with debates on 'Anime or Not'.
• layer8 2y ago
  The Solo Leveling anime adapts a Korean Manhwa, so maybe not the best example here. Not that there is any shortage of male wish fulfilment in original Japanese works.
  • smusamashah 2y ago
    Shite, I wasn't expecting bad sentiment on Solo Levelling. I love games and this series touches me so differently. But unlike the parent comment, I have watched may be 4-5 anime series in total because I generally don't like anime, they look all same to me.
    • dragontamer 2y ago
      There's a lot of better trapped in a video game anime out there. Overlord does a better job with grimdark. I'm fond of Log Horizon though S3 sucked. Solo Leveling came out the same time as Weakest Tamer began a journey to pick up Trash, and that was delightful for me. I think the visceral stuck at the bottom of the ladder feeling was better handled by weakest tamer. A young girl who was forced to run away from home because her village considered her 0-star skill literally a heresy and religious blight. Unlike Solo Leveling, the Weakest Tamer actually sticks with the plot. She never becomes much more powerful than she was, and instead leverages her relationships / friends she makes rather than literally solo leveling. -------- The Isekai / Reverse Isekai genre is literally animes biggest genre right now. There's so so so many better shows out there than Solo Leveling. But I guess the question is: what do you like about it? Solo Leveling is a passable male fantasy do-it-myself-by-plot-armor always win kind of show. But.... This plot honestly has been done better back by Sword Art Online (and I didn't even like that anime either). ------ Jobless Reincarnation, despite all the controversy, is probably the local optimum on that 'Do it myself' / solo leveling / get stronger loop. Hmmmmm... I'd give either Reincarnated as a Slime or I'm a Spider, So What? As my top picks on this genre / storytelling style. For personal enjoyment. Maaayyyyybe Re:Zero if you're into the body horror stuff that Solo Leveling also does.
      • fwip 2y ago
        I loved all the spider bits of "So I'm a Spider, So What?" But every time they cut to the other half of the cast members it sucked so bad.
• layer8 2y ago
  It's true that Anime is a broad field, but the vast majority of works is heavily shaped by Japanese idiosyncrasies and themes, which also means that, barring singular exceptions, anime is not really something for everyone. Conversely, the non-Western storytelling, themes, and character/interaction stereotypes are what many are drawn to (but still only a small minority of the population). I therefore don't see it "eating the world" in the sense of becoming completely mainstream. It's arguably not even mainstream in Japan itself. However, to me this is a good thing, in terms of cultural diversity. Trying to adapt anime to more mainstream tastes in the name of global profit would do it a disservice.
  • diob 2y ago
    Saying it's not mainstream in Japan is a heck of a claim.
    • booleandilemma 2y ago
      Anime is an important part of their culture.
    • layer8 2y ago
      The majority of the Japanese population doesn’t watch anime: https://unseen-japan.com/is-anime-popular-in-japan/ https://unseen-japan.com/is-anime-popular-in-japan/ And a large portion of those who do watch is due to a small number of very popular tentpole series. Most anime productions cater to a relatively niche nerd/geek audience.
      • hnthrowaway6543 2y ago
        32% of Japanese people watching anime is pretty damn mainstream. Marvel is indisputably some of the most mainstream US media in the past 20 years and yet "only" ~50% of the US population has seen a Marvel movie.[0] [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/807367/marvel-movie-viewership-age/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/807367/marvel-movie-view...
        • 2y ago
• RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  You are mixing together under anime shows which are produced in Japan from manga or from light novels with shows produced in South Korea from manhwas. They don’t have much in common. Even the art style is different. It’s a bit like mixing together European comics and American ones. It doesn’t make much sense.
• Der_Einzige 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • lioeters 2y ago
    > Genndy Tartakovsky An artist with a unique vision and aesthetic. Samurai Jack is one of my favorites.
  • cyberax 2y ago
    > It's disgusting to claim that Western "Cartoons" fall under a "rough set of same humor or writers". There's a grain of truth here. A huge grain. The US comics were long stunted by the Comics Code of 1954: http://www.mit.edu/activities/safe/labeling/comics-code-1954 http://www.mit.edu/activities/safe/labeling/comics-code-1954 It had been revised a bunch of times, but arguably it went away only in early 2000-s. Mostly because of the anime/manga influence. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority
    • pferde 2y ago
      Did that code even apply to cartoons? I thought it didn't.
      • cyberax 2y ago
        It didn't apply directly, but a lot of cartoons used comics for the source material. And even without that, Hollywood had to worry about ratings, and that resulted in similar restrictions.
• deepzn 2y ago
  Though the most popular anime by far around the world is shonen. Which caters to the typical male teen/pre-teen audience, but also adults and is typically characterized by action, typical underdog protagonist stereotypes of a loner, outcast, who develops a tight knit support group or team on their quest to overtake or defeat a great evil in the world. E.g. One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Attack on Titan, etc.
  • zmgsabst 2y ago
    Everyone likes a good retelling of “A Hero’s Journey”. That’s why properties like Star Wars rose to prominence as well: > underdog protagonist stereotypes of a loner, outcast, who develops a tight knit support group or team on their quest to overtake or defeat a great evil in the world
  • atmavatar 2y ago
    Attack on Titan doesn't really fit that list, though I'm not sure which of the reasons would be considered spoilers.
• vunderba 2y ago
  "It's not like cartoons in the USA that fall under the rough set of same humor or writers" Such a hysterically bad take that it calls into question your entire point. Quick list of cartoons that have an incredible variety, both in terms of animation quality, sophistication of humor, and target demographic: - Steven universe - Bojack Horseman - adventure time - helluva boss - Invincible And this is just within the last decade. Want me to go farther back? - Animaniacs (the original series) - Spaceghost Coast to Coast - Justice League - Ugly Americans I'm also excluding for the most part animated comedies, such as Futurama, South Park, the entire Adult Swim lineup of the late 90s / early 2000s.
  • the_clarence 2y ago
    Sure but have you watched anime? Id say american cartoons are still very niche, the same way comic books are mostly about super heros compared to mangas or french BDs
  • bawolff 2y ago
    I'm not sure i agree. Yes there are exceptions, but they tend to be few and far between, and fairly niche themselves. Most american animation seems to be: stuff aimed at young children (pixar type shows), super hero adjacent stuff, or adult commedy (like south park). A few exceptions here and there but on the whole there just isn't that much variety.
    • galleywest200 2y ago
      Are you talking about made for TV animation or others? I would suggest animated feature films such as The Secret of Kells, A Scanner Darkly, or even Waking Life and Heavy Metal to see that this is not entirely the case.
      • the_clarence 2y ago
        Rare exceptions
      • bawolff 2y ago
• throw18376 2y ago
  outside of the actual pornography, more and more of anime is just emotional pornography for people with attachment troubles. it can be a great art form. even some of the emotional pornography can have artistic merit (recently: Frieren). but increasingly, despite diversity in genre and visual presentation, all anime just tries to push the same emotional buttons of loneliness, belonging, connection, in a very heavy-handed way that is more about provoking the emotions in the body than about artistic expression. not everyone has those buttons, which is why anime fans are a devoted minority, and why it seems like lonely, traumatized, and marginalized people are drawn to it.
  • B-Con 2y ago
    Mass-produced media always recycles the same thematic stories. Western cartoons aimed at kids recycled the "power of being yourself" to death. Ask my tweens about the shows they've watched, and they'll pick apart how repetitive the story beats are between them. The beats that anime is recycling may be different, but all of them get tiresome and feel pandering.
  • dragontamer 2y ago
    Have you tried watching something like OddTaxi? It's a bit social commentary (not very heavy but you can feel it). But I don't think it's about loneliness or relations much at all (I guess the Walrus and the Nurse Llama have a bit of a romantic fling but I don't consider it a major part of the show). I'd say one of the major villains is someone who has fallen into the stereotypical gachapon gamer / whale / hikkomori type shut-in that sounds like you'd enjoy him as a villain. So rather than catering to that demographic, OddTaxi skewers it by clearly marking that character as villainous. It's just a solid Film Noir murder mystery, except the main character is the Taxi Driver with damn near perfect memory and facial recognition rather than a proper detective. It takes some time and discussions with various people around town to figure out the murder plot, but I was quite satisfied by it. It's a dry show with a lot of talking. The bulk of the show is just the Walrus / Protagonist picking up customers around town, talking with them for 5 minutes and dropping them off. But it's those discussions alone that leads him to the murder plot. It's really fun to see how everyone around town was so close to the murderer. ------- I agree with you that there's a genre of anime that celebrates or dramatizes the Hikkomori / shut-in type (ex: Re:Zero, Jobless Reincarnation). But at this point, the Hikkomori is a stock character, just one tool to tell a story. There's a lot of different uses of the "emotionally stunted Hikkomori" (ex: Anohana is the Hikkomori who through the drama of a Ghost coming back to talk with him, he gets pulled out of it and emotionally heals). But anime and anime culture is above all, about stock characters that are borrowed, remixed, and turned into something new in the next story. The emotionally-stunted Hikkomori can become the hero in Re:Zero, the antagonist of OddTaxi, or a source of Comedy in Devil is a Part-Timer. Frieren seems to cover a lot of Hikkomori Tropes (emotionally stunted character who is suddenly learning how to deal with emotions as she interacts with humans). So I think you're right in that she's seemingly related to the trope. I don't think I thought of her like that before but it seems to match up more-and-more that I think of it. She has all the markings of a Hikkomori in terms of attitude and even story progression (Himmel had to convince her to get up and try)
• mitthrowaway2 2y ago
  Exactly. Anime is really a medium, not a genre.
• maxglute 2y ago
  There's something to be said about Waifu lists transcending anime genres / subgenres. I would say compared to 70s-90s anime landscape, stylisitically anime / east asian animation has converged a lot. At least mainstream stuff - we've nearly reached peak moe, there's still seasonable optimizations / stylistic tweaks here and there - but IMO it's fair to suggest convergence in waifu/husbando aesthetic has driven and is driving a lot of growth, and it's fair to put everything under umbrella for extrapolating market trends. I feel animes' ability to make fans horny and the increasing culture around anime fandom (now) unabashedly wanking over their affection/fondness over random constructed characters across genres is... potent.
• RajT88 2y ago
  I like that about Anime. I think part of my it and Manga have such a broad spectrum is because it is relatively cheap to produce - meaning the companies bankrolling production are less risk averse, and as a result lots more weird ideas get to be tried. You do not have to watch too much of it to get the sense that writers are just going nuts tossing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks. Endless remixing of ideas from what came before, and outside influences. Example: Legend of Black Heaven, which featured a middle aged retired rockstar guitar player working as a software engineer, who is tracked down by aliens to get him to use his guitar playing as a weapon in an intergalactic war. Sure, why not? Is it good? Debatable. Have you seen anything like it before? Unlikely.
  • entropicdrifter 2y ago
    Legend of Black Heaven is one of my all-time favorites. I think he's a middle manager, not an engineer. His title is "Section Manager" and I only remember this because the Japanese title of the show is Kacho Ouji, which translates to Section Manager Ouji or Section Manager Prince if you translate his name