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Because those websites cloudflare is performing racketeering-as-a-service for are open to the public.

by AyyEye 2y ago

gruez 2y ago
Cloudflare isn't unilaterally inserting themselves between the website and you. They're contracted by the website owner to provide website security, just like how ticketmaster is contracted by the venue owner to provide ticketing. I don't see what the difference is.
- AyyEye 2y ago
  "Security" in the real world doesn't get to profile people. Profiling is Cloudflare's entire business model.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >"Security" in the real world doesn't get to profile people 1. yes they do. have you ever been to vegas? there's cameras and facial recognition everywhere. outside of vegas, some bars and clubs also use ID scanning systems to enforce blacklists, and in most cases that system is outsourced to an external vendor. finally, ticketmaster requires an account to use, and to create an account you need to provide them your billing information. that's arguably more intrusive than whatever cloudflare is doing, which is at least pseudonymous. 2. "profiling people" might be objectionable for other reasons, but it's not a relevant factor in whether something is a "protection" racket or not. There's plenty of reasons to hate cloudflare, but it's laughable to describe them as a criminal enterprise.
    - AyyEye 2y ago
      1. A blacklist isn't profiling. Known problem causing entities is entirely different than 'he looks suspicious', because the latter is often... Misused (to be polite). 2. Of course it is relevant. Because the more false positives they have the more money they can extort. They have negative incentive for their system to work properly. P.S. ticketmaster is absolutely criminal, too.
      - gruez 2y ago
        >2. Of course it is relevant. Because the more false positives they have the more money they can extort. They have negative incentive for their system to work properly. What are the "false positives" in this context? It's specifically for blocking bots, and enrollment into the program to get unblocked is designed for bot owners. It's obviously not designed to extract money from regular users. I doubt there's even a straightforward way for regular users to pay to get unblocked via this channel. As the people who are running blocks and are blocked, I don't see what the issue is. Isn't it working as intended by definition?
        AyyEye 2y ago
        > It's specifically for blocking bots Define "bots" in a way computers can understand. > What are the "false positives" in this context? Regular users that cloudflare (profiles) accuses of being bots. God help you if you want to block trackers or something else that's not regular. > I doubt there's even a straightforward way for regular users to pay to get unblocked via this channel This is part of the problem. But hey, at least they are only a process change away from charging normies too.
        gruez 2y ago
        >Define "bots" in a way computers can understand. How is having a specific definition relevant to this conversation? An approximate definition of "a human using a browser to visit a site" probably suffices, without having to get into weird edge cases like "but what if they programmed lynx to visit your site at 3am when they're asleep?". >Regular users that cloudflare (profiles) accuses of being bots. God help you if you want to block trackers or something else that's not regular. I use ublock, resistfingerpnting, and a VPN. That probably puts me in the 95+ percentile in terms of suspiciousness. Yet the most hassle I get from cloudflare is the turnstile challenges can be solved by clicking a checkbox. Suggesting that this sort of a hurdle constitutes some sort of "criminal enterprise" is laughable. I do occasionally get outright blocked, but I suspect that's due to the site operator blocking VPN/datacenter ASNs rather than something on cloudflare's part. >This is part of the problem. But hey, at least they are only a process change away from charging normies too. So they're damned if they do, damned if they do? God forbid that site operators have agency over what visitors they allow on their sites!
  - umbra07 2y ago
    What do you think club bouncers are doing?
re-thc 2y ago
> are open to the public Most websites aren't "open to the public". Most use firewalls, configure rules, etc that already block certain accesses. It's open to selected groups, just maybe including 1s you're allowed to be a part of.

Because those websites cloudflare is performing racketeering-as-a-service for are open to the public.

by AyyEye 2y ago

Because those websites cloudflare is performing racketeering-as-a-service for are open to the public.

Cloudflare isn't unilaterally inserting themselves between the website and you. They're contracted by the website owner to provide website security, just like how ticketmaster is contracted by the venue owner to provide ticketing. I don't see what the difference is.

AyyEye 2y ago
"Security" in the real world doesn't get to profile people. Profiling is Cloudflare's entire business model.
- gruez 2y ago
  >"Security" in the real world doesn't get to profile people 1. yes they do. have you ever been to vegas? there's cameras and facial recognition everywhere. outside of vegas, some bars and clubs also use ID scanning systems to enforce blacklists, and in most cases that system is outsourced to an external vendor. finally, ticketmaster requires an account to use, and to create an account you need to provide them your billing information. that's arguably more intrusive than whatever cloudflare is doing, which is at least pseudonymous. 2. "profiling people" might be objectionable for other reasons, but it's not a relevant factor in whether something is a "protection" racket or not. There's plenty of reasons to hate cloudflare, but it's laughable to describe them as a criminal enterprise.
  - AyyEye 2y ago
    1. A blacklist isn't profiling. Known problem causing entities is entirely different than 'he looks suspicious', because the latter is often... Misused (to be polite). 2. Of course it is relevant. Because the more false positives they have the more money they can extort. They have negative incentive for their system to work properly. P.S. ticketmaster is absolutely criminal, too.
    - gruez 2y ago
      >2. Of course it is relevant. Because the more false positives they have the more money they can extort. They have negative incentive for their system to work properly. What are the "false positives" in this context? It's specifically for blocking bots, and enrollment into the program to get unblocked is designed for bot owners. It's obviously not designed to extract money from regular users. I doubt there's even a straightforward way for regular users to pay to get unblocked via this channel. As the people who are running blocks and are blocked, I don't see what the issue is. Isn't it working as intended by definition?
      - AyyEye 2y ago
        > It's specifically for blocking bots Define "bots" in a way computers can understand. > What are the "false positives" in this context? Regular users that cloudflare (profiles) accuses of being bots. God help you if you want to block trackers or something else that's not regular. > I doubt there's even a straightforward way for regular users to pay to get unblocked via this channel This is part of the problem. But hey, at least they are only a process change away from charging normies too.
        gruez 2y ago
        >Define "bots" in a way computers can understand. How is having a specific definition relevant to this conversation? An approximate definition of "a human using a browser to visit a site" probably suffices, without having to get into weird edge cases like "but what if they programmed lynx to visit your site at 3am when they're asleep?". >Regular users that cloudflare (profiles) accuses of being bots. God help you if you want to block trackers or something else that's not regular. I use ublock, resistfingerpnting, and a VPN. That probably puts me in the 95+ percentile in terms of suspiciousness. Yet the most hassle I get from cloudflare is the turnstile challenges can be solved by clicking a checkbox. Suggesting that this sort of a hurdle constitutes some sort of "criminal enterprise" is laughable. I do occasionally get outright blocked, but I suspect that's due to the site operator blocking VPN/datacenter ASNs rather than something on cloudflare's part. >This is part of the problem. But hey, at least they are only a process change away from charging normies too. So they're damned if they do, damned if they do? God forbid that site operators have agency over what visitors they allow on their sites!
- umbra07 2y ago
  What do you think club bouncers are doing?

re-thc 2y ago

> are open to the public Most websites aren't "open to the public". Most use firewalls, configure rules, etc that already block certain accesses. It's open to selected groups, just maybe including 1s you're allowed to be a part of.