7 ms·

Why are the violins the biggest section in the orchestra?

92 points by samizdis 2y ago

Kon-Peki 2y ago
Part of it is volume. You need 30-50 violins to get the same amount of sound that comes out of a single tuba. Part of it is tradition/history. Orchestral music is written with the assumption you’ll have a specific proportion of the various instruments, concert halls are constructed with acoustics that assume you’ll have the same proportions, etc. Nobody is going to stop you from having fewer violins in your orchestra, but to do that you’re going to have to take on work that other orchestras don’t have to take on.
- kylebenzle 2y ago
  Yes, violins are the largest section in the orchestra to balance the sound of louder instruments like brass and to create a rich, full texture in the music.
tonystride 2y ago
This makes a lot of sense when it comes to vibrating large volumes of air in a concert hall. But something in this realm that also surprises me is how a small amount of strings can sound like a much bigger ensemble through composition and arranging techniques. For example I’m always amazed at how full Mozart’s string quartets sound. It’s also interesting how early game systems had to make use of these techniques since their synth chips had limited voices. Sometimes just three waveforms and a noise wave form (for ‘percussion’)
- senderista 2y ago
  Check out the scherzo of Schubert’s string quintet.
- djtango 2y ago
  Obligatory video showcasing this: https://youtu.be/WyvfKFVRqVs https://youtu.be/WyvfKFVRqVs
jdietrich 2y ago
The answer is really quite obvious if you've ever heard a British brass band live - even the relatively small brass section in a symphony orchestra can completely dominate in terms of volume. It was established in Goldscheider v Royal Opera House that a typical brass section can achieve peak sound pressure levels of 137dB(A) without any special effort. If a brass section give it the beans, then it's literally like standing on the deck of an aircraft carrier for anyone sat in front of them. You can feel your eyes vibrating in your head. You need a lot of string players to even hope to keep up with that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InN8MTV2t1Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InN8MTV2t1Y
- netdevnet 2y ago
  do British brass bands use a specific layout compared to brass bands from other countries? But we all know from experience that brass sections can be really loud with almost no effort involved
  - jdietrich 2y ago
    It's a specific type of ensemble, consisting of ~28 players with a standard instrumentation. Many international bands are based in the British tradition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_brass_band#Instrumentation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_brass_band#Instrumenta...
- rwmj 2y ago
  Related - why are there no saxophones in the orchestra? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsfPS7pXg1E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsfPS7pXg1E
bewaretheirs 2y ago
Wasn't always this way -- see this historic reconstruction of a Baroque orchestra https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNqJ8mED1VE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNqJ8mED1VE (Handel, Music for the Royal Fireworks on period instruments) Down on the lowest level of the stage we find a small string orchestra, but then behind it on risers there are something like 18 oboes(!!), 10 bassoons, 9 horns, 9 trumpets.
- bigiain 2y ago
  <sings> Seventy-six trombones led the big parade With a hundred and ten cornets close at hand (I have no idea why that's still in my head, I probably haven't heard it for 40 years or more... https://genius.com/Cast-of-the-music-man-seventy-six-trombones-lyrics https://genius.com/Cast-of-the-music-man-seventy-six-trombon... )
- mojuba 2y ago
  That's an amazing performance, thanks for sharing! (Is it just me or the brass instruments are slightly out of tune? Though gives it a special charm since all of them are out of tune the same way)
  - jamincan 2y ago
    My understanding is that period instruments from the Baroque go out of tune very easily. When I've seen the Messiah performed with Baroque-style orchestra, I recall them retuning a number of times during the performance.
klyrs 2y ago
Anthropologists believe that the enlarged strings sections of symphonies were used to demonstrate fitness for sexual reproduction with other large ensembles. This view is controversial, however: others believe string sections may have played a role in religious ceremony.
- tux3 2y ago
  Neurology has shown that a lesion of the string section induces a local dispersion response, therefore we propose to rename this area the cohesion promoting region, replacing the previous name of tan-ish matter, which was based on outward appearance of the structure.
Simon_ORourke 2y ago
I've always wondered that myself, especially why all the focus and acclaim for the violinists over and above the other musicians. I'm sure it's pretty difficult to play the French horn or the clarinet, so why is it always a bozo with a violin that takes the bow with the conductor? This may have the answer though - pure musical chauvinism - "The board of the Philadelphia Orchestra allegedly said the winds "weren't busy enough to put on a good show."
- floppiplopp 2y ago
  When the conductor and the violin take a bow the brass section could make some fart sounds. That'll show 'em.
- kayson 2y ago
  That would be the concertmaster. When music was often played without a conductor, it was the concertmaster who would lead the ensemble. They serve, musically, and sometimes organizationally, as the head or representative of the orchestra. In modern symphonic ensembles they come on stage separately to tune the ensemble. I'm guessing it's just tradition at this point. As to why the focus and acclaim, I think it's a combination of a few things. The first is a very, very high skill ceiling. I've heard that French horn can be harder to play, but violin is definitely considered to be among the hardest. Then there's also repertoire. While there were early concerti for most instruments, it was even as early as Vivaldi where virtuosic violin rep started to appear. Then came Paganini and it was game over for the rest of the instruments. The sheer volume of pieces is why violin dominates over, say, cello. There may also be a physical size factor. You just can't cover the range of a cello or bass as fast as a violin, though I've seen some insanely impressive low string players.
  - grujicd 2y ago
    I've seen this recently - it was a smaller orchestra without a conductor, and the lead violinist was moving upper body a lot in patterns resembling what a conductor does with a stick.
    - 2y ago
jancsika 2y ago
The divisions are also interesting. You've typically got something like a group of 16 violins for the first section, then another group of 16 for the second section. Each section has a "1st chair" which is the violinist sitting at index 0. Typically the best players are at the lower indices. Violin[0][0] is the "concertmaster," who gets to come out to applause and then play an "a" at 440 Hertz to tune up the orchestra. When a part of the composition is marked "solo" in the score-- say, a challenging or lyrical melody to be played by a single violin-- the concertmaster is the one who plays it. As far as I know, there's no standard way for the composer to notate a solo for, say, violin[1][15] (or, to use a safer Javascript notation to cover cases of smaller orchestras, violin[-1]). Instead, the violins typically get divided in the score into groups of 2 or 4, or possibly more for modern compositions. I'm not a violinist, but I've always wondered about violin[0][1]-- first section second chair-- vs. violin[1][0]-- second section first chair. I think I'd rather be the latter and be in charge of the second section. Being second chair of the first section seems like you'd just end up envying all the solos that the concertmaster plays. (Edit: and also having to practice all those solos in case the concertmaster gets sick.)
- tgv 2y ago
  It’s quite common for the first oboe to play the tuning pitch. > As far as I know, there's no standard way for the composer to notate a solo for, say, violin[1][15] Because it doesn’t make sense. You don’t know who sits there. You just want the sound of a solo violin, and the first chairs have gotten to their position because they can deliver. There are all sorts of weird annotations in scores though, so if you think that one part sounds best when played from the last row, you can just say so in the score.
  - hinkley 2y ago
    I saw a concert with a small regional orchestra recently. The first violin stood which triggered the tuning, but she did not join in playing until a handful of instruments were already in the chorus. I don’t know who started but I’m willing to believe it may have been the oboe.
luxcem 2y ago
The rule of thumb for an orchestra is n double bass, n+2 cellos, n+4 violas, n+6 2nd violins, n+8 1st violins. Usually n ranges from 4 to 8.
cubefox 2y ago
> The violin is a comparatively quiet instrument I knew it!
ungreased0675 2y ago
I go to DCI shows because I prefer horns to strings. A skilled horn line at max volume will change your life. That said, I’ve been going less because the compositions have gotten way too “artsy.” Let’s play a bunch of discordant chords and unresolved runs, because we’re artists, not entertainers. In fact, we would prefer if most people didn’t like it!
- b112 2y ago
  This immediately made me think of outrage clickbait. So much stuff is wrapped in the veil of shock/outrafe now, that maybe people even think it creative? When I look youtube, even quality videos about "how to dig a trench for a sump pump" often have a preview showing some horrible thing happening, or the guy with an anguished look on his face, and a title of "don't let this happen to you!" What if the height of creativity is now "we shocked/annoyed you".
- nosianu 2y ago
  I'm reminded of Stravinski's Rite of Spring, the first performance. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rite_of_Spring#First_performance https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rite_of_Spring#First_p... > The complicated music and violent dance steps caused some to boo. They started to shout and whistle. They argued, and other people who liked it argued back. Then some people started to fight. In the end the police were called. Stravinksy was very upset and ran out of the theatre. The performance was a scandal, but this actually made people curious and soon the ballet became very famous. It was performed six times that season, and there were no more interruptions during the other performances. I had a similarly negative reaction when I listened to it for the first time, but over time it turned into the opposite, it's addictive and I have to go back and listen to at least parts of it once in a while. Still, just because this performance caused some violent negative reactions does not mean anything that is at first rejected is good. If it still sounds unappealing the second and third time, it's probably not for you unless your taste changes a lot. Recommendation (a truly excellent free course for the interested non-music-professional "HarvardX: First Nights - Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring: Modernism, Ballet, and Riots"): https://www.edx.org/learn/music-arts/harvard-university-first-nights-stravinskys-rite-of-spring-modernism-ballet-and-riots https://www.edx.org/learn/music-arts/harvard-university-firs...

92 points by samizdis 2y ago

Part of it is volume. You need 30-50 violins to get the same amount of sound that comes out of a single tuba. Part of it is tradition/history. Orchestral music is written with the assumption you’ll have a specific proportion of the various instruments, concert halls are constructed with acoustics that assume you’ll have the same proportions, etc. Nobody is going to stop you from having fewer violins in your orchestra, but to do that you’re going to have to take on work that other orchestras don’t have to take on.

kylebenzle 2y ago
Yes, violins are the largest section in the orchestra to balance the sound of louder instruments like brass and to create a rich, full texture in the music.

tonystride 2y ago

This makes a lot of sense when it comes to vibrating large volumes of air in a concert hall. But something in this realm that also surprises me is how a small amount of strings can sound like a much bigger ensemble through composition and arranging techniques. For example I’m always amazed at how full Mozart’s string quartets sound. It’s also interesting how early game systems had to make use of these techniques since their synth chips had limited voices. Sometimes just three waveforms and a noise wave form (for ‘percussion’)

senderista 2y ago
Check out the scherzo of Schubert’s string quintet.
djtango 2y ago
Obligatory video showcasing this: https://youtu.be/WyvfKFVRqVs https://youtu.be/WyvfKFVRqVs

jdietrich 2y ago

The answer is really quite obvious if you've ever heard a British brass band live - even the relatively small brass section in a symphony orchestra can completely dominate in terms of volume. It was established in Goldscheider v Royal Opera House that a typical brass section can achieve peak sound pressure levels of 137dB(A) without any special effort. If a brass section give it the beans, then it's literally like standing on the deck of an aircraft carrier for anyone sat in front of them. You can feel your eyes vibrating in your head. You need a lot of string players to even hope to keep up with that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InN8MTV2t1Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InN8MTV2t1Y

netdevnet 2y ago
do British brass bands use a specific layout compared to brass bands from other countries? But we all know from experience that brass sections can be really loud with almost no effort involved
- jdietrich 2y ago
  It's a specific type of ensemble, consisting of ~28 players with a standard instrumentation. Many international bands are based in the British tradition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_brass_band#Instrumentation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_brass_band#Instrumenta...
rwmj 2y ago
Related - why are there no saxophones in the orchestra? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsfPS7pXg1E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsfPS7pXg1E

bewaretheirs 2y ago

Wasn't always this way -- see this historic reconstruction of a Baroque orchestra https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNqJ8mED1VE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNqJ8mED1VE (Handel, Music for the Royal Fireworks on period instruments) Down on the lowest level of the stage we find a small string orchestra, but then behind it on risers there are something like 18 oboes(!!), 10 bassoons, 9 horns, 9 trumpets.

bigiain 2y ago
<sings> Seventy-six trombones led the big parade With a hundred and ten cornets close at hand (I have no idea why that's still in my head, I probably haven't heard it for 40 years or more... https://genius.com/Cast-of-the-music-man-seventy-six-trombones-lyrics https://genius.com/Cast-of-the-music-man-seventy-six-trombon... )
mojuba 2y ago
That's an amazing performance, thanks for sharing! (Is it just me or the brass instruments are slightly out of tune? Though gives it a special charm since all of them are out of tune the same way)
- jamincan 2y ago
  My understanding is that period instruments from the Baroque go out of tune very easily. When I've seen the Messiah performed with Baroque-style orchestra, I recall them retuning a number of times during the performance.

klyrs 2y ago

Anthropologists believe that the enlarged strings sections of symphonies were used to demonstrate fitness for sexual reproduction with other large ensembles. This view is controversial, however: others believe string sections may have played a role in religious ceremony.

tux3 2y ago
Neurology has shown that a lesion of the string section induces a local dispersion response, therefore we propose to rename this area the cohesion promoting region, replacing the previous name of tan-ish matter, which was based on outward appearance of the structure.

Simon_ORourke 2y ago

I've always wondered that myself, especially why all the focus and acclaim for the violinists over and above the other musicians. I'm sure it's pretty difficult to play the French horn or the clarinet, so why is it always a bozo with a violin that takes the bow with the conductor? This may have the answer though - pure musical chauvinism - "The board of the Philadelphia Orchestra allegedly said the winds "weren't busy enough to put on a good show."

floppiplopp 2y ago
When the conductor and the violin take a bow the brass section could make some fart sounds. That'll show 'em.
kayson 2y ago
That would be the concertmaster. When music was often played without a conductor, it was the concertmaster who would lead the ensemble. They serve, musically, and sometimes organizationally, as the head or representative of the orchestra. In modern symphonic ensembles they come on stage separately to tune the ensemble. I'm guessing it's just tradition at this point. As to why the focus and acclaim, I think it's a combination of a few things. The first is a very, very high skill ceiling. I've heard that French horn can be harder to play, but violin is definitely considered to be among the hardest. Then there's also repertoire. While there were early concerti for most instruments, it was even as early as Vivaldi where virtuosic violin rep started to appear. Then came Paganini and it was game over for the rest of the instruments. The sheer volume of pieces is why violin dominates over, say, cello. There may also be a physical size factor. You just can't cover the range of a cello or bass as fast as a violin, though I've seen some insanely impressive low string players.
- grujicd 2y ago
  I've seen this recently - it was a smaller orchestra without a conductor, and the lead violinist was moving upper body a lot in patterns resembling what a conductor does with a stick.
  - 2y ago

jancsika 2y ago

The divisions are also interesting. You've typically got something like a group of 16 violins for the first section, then another group of 16 for the second section. Each section has a "1st chair" which is the violinist sitting at index 0. Typically the best players are at the lower indices. Violin[0][0] is the "concertmaster," who gets to come out to applause and then play an "a" at 440 Hertz to tune up the orchestra. When a part of the composition is marked "solo" in the score-- say, a challenging or lyrical melody to be played by a single violin-- the concertmaster is the one who plays it. As far as I know, there's no standard way for the composer to notate a solo for, say, violin[1][15] (or, to use a safer Javascript notation to cover cases of smaller orchestras, violin[-1]). Instead, the violins typically get divided in the score into groups of 2 or 4, or possibly more for modern compositions. I'm not a violinist, but I've always wondered about violin[0][1]-- first section second chair-- vs. violin[1][0]-- second section first chair. I think I'd rather be the latter and be in charge of the second section. Being second chair of the first section seems like you'd just end up envying all the solos that the concertmaster plays. (Edit: and also having to practice all those solos in case the concertmaster gets sick.)

tgv 2y ago
It’s quite common for the first oboe to play the tuning pitch. > As far as I know, there's no standard way for the composer to notate a solo for, say, violin[1][15] Because it doesn’t make sense. You don’t know who sits there. You just want the sound of a solo violin, and the first chairs have gotten to their position because they can deliver. There are all sorts of weird annotations in scores though, so if you think that one part sounds best when played from the last row, you can just say so in the score.
- hinkley 2y ago
  I saw a concert with a small regional orchestra recently. The first violin stood which triggered the tuning, but she did not join in playing until a handful of instruments were already in the chorus. I don’t know who started but I’m willing to believe it may have been the oboe.

luxcem 2y ago

The rule of thumb for an orchestra is n double bass, n+2 cellos, n+4 violas, n+6 2nd violins, n+8 1st violins. Usually n ranges from 4 to 8.

cubefox 2y ago

> The violin is a comparatively quiet instrument I knew it!

ungreased0675 2y ago

I go to DCI shows because I prefer horns to strings. A skilled horn line at max volume will change your life. That said, I’ve been going less because the compositions have gotten way too “artsy.” Let’s play a bunch of discordant chords and unresolved runs, because we’re artists, not entertainers. In fact, we would prefer if most people didn’t like it!

b112 2y ago
This immediately made me think of outrage clickbait. So much stuff is wrapped in the veil of shock/outrafe now, that maybe people even think it creative? When I look youtube, even quality videos about "how to dig a trench for a sump pump" often have a preview showing some horrible thing happening, or the guy with an anguished look on his face, and a title of "don't let this happen to you!" What if the height of creativity is now "we shocked/annoyed you".
nosianu 2y ago
I'm reminded of Stravinski's Rite of Spring, the first performance. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rite_of_Spring#First_performance https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rite_of_Spring#First_p... > The complicated music and violent dance steps caused some to boo. They started to shout and whistle. They argued, and other people who liked it argued back. Then some people started to fight. In the end the police were called. Stravinksy was very upset and ran out of the theatre. The performance was a scandal, but this actually made people curious and soon the ballet became very famous. It was performed six times that season, and there were no more interruptions during the other performances. I had a similarly negative reaction when I listened to it for the first time, but over time it turned into the opposite, it's addictive and I have to go back and listen to at least parts of it once in a while. Still, just because this performance caused some violent negative reactions does not mean anything that is at first rejected is good. If it still sounds unappealing the second and third time, it's probably not for you unless your taste changes a lot. Recommendation (a truly excellent free course for the interested non-music-professional "HarvardX: First Nights - Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring: Modernism, Ballet, and Riots"): https://www.edx.org/learn/music-arts/harvard-university-first-nights-stravinskys-rite-of-spring-modernism-ballet-and-riots https://www.edx.org/learn/music-arts/harvard-university-firs...