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I am basically the core demographic that this sort of law should appeal to. I try to always bring reusable bags to the store, even though I live in a not-very-g

by rurp 2y ago

I am basically the core demographic that this sort of law should appeal to. I try to always bring reusable bags to the store, even though I live in a not-very-green city where half of the cashiers look surprised and confused by such a thing. In general I wish that we were doing far more to conserve the environment. But I think that this is a dumb law. The problem is that the benefit:annoyance ratio is terrible. Plastic bags are bad for environment and using fewer is better, but the benefits of a blanket ban will be very modest and the annoyance to everyday people is significant. The unpleasant reality is that political capital is a big factor in getting things done in a democracy, and people should be mindful of how it's spent. Most voters are indifferent or mildly in favor of protecting the environment; they will go along with environmental goals as long as they don't perceive them as harming their quality of life too much. And that's fine. This means that highly visible and inconvenient policies that tinker around the edges are the opposite of what environmentalists should be aiming for. Unfortunately politicians often aren't trying to fix a problem, they want to appear to be fixing a problem, which is how we end up with performative legislation. Which then wraps the issue up in the usual culture war nonsense, opponents dig in, and more meaningful policies get blocked.

scoofy 2y ago
Ehh... I have to push back here. Any annoyance ratio is one that collapses for the next generation. Ask any child about whether we should allow plastic bags that pollute our water tables and oceans or paper bags that don't, and pretty much every kid will say paper. It's the obvious choice if you're not habituated to plastic. There are lots and lots of types of inexpensive bags we could use that don't actively fuck up our waterways. Plastic bag advocates just like to pretend those don't exist because it's expedient. The same thing happened when we phased out styrofoam.
- autoexec 2y ago
  > Ask any child about whether we should allow plastic bags that pollute our water tables and oceans or paper bags that don't, and pretty much every kid will say paper. I suspect that'll have a lot to do with the fact that children don't go grocery shopping, and don't have to carry a bunch of items from cars, up stairs, and into their homes. They also don't give even a passing thought to the plastic bags being regularly re-used as bin liners in the home, or re-used to pick up after their dogs while on walks, or re-used for transporting items to other people's houses. Paper bags are not a reasonable alternative to plastic bags for heavy loads, wet/soiled things, times when you need to carry more than one (or maybe two) bags at a time, etc. Is it possible to manufacture an alternative bag that accomplishes all of the things that plastic bags do today? Maybe. Is such as bag widely available for the same cost? Nope. If plastic bag ban advocates want everyone onboard they'd do better to make sure that viable alternatives which are, at a minimum, at least as good as plastic bags are ready to fill in the void. Until that's the case it's going to be a massive pain to just ban what works. If plastic shopping bags were "banned" where I live, I'd just find myself needing to pay for plastic shopping bags which used to be free because I still don't have anything to replace their utility for many tasks. That'd mean that I'm producing the same amount of plastic waste as before, only now I'd be paying more and be inconvenienced in the process. Even when it comes to shopping bags used purely for shopping, many of the reusable canvas bags I've seen at stores don't hold as many items as plastic bags do, don't have handles that are as long/useful, and inconvenience me by requiring me to always have them with me and to know, in advance, how many I'm going to end up needing on every trip to the store. If you want to get people to give something up, you can spend a ton of energy and time beating the public into compliance with sticks and shaming them until they begrudgingly give up something they want, or you can just offer them something better in which case all the work is done for you. The transition from styrofoam to plastic accomplished that. No one has offered up something better.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    I just keep some reusable shopping bags in the car and in my backpack. Having an extra bag can often be useful outside just shopping trips. They're far nicer than the disposable plastic bags. They can carry more weight, don't tear from sharper edges of some packages, and look nicer. Some of the bags I have in my car even have a metal wire rim around the top to help hold the bag open so soft items don't get squished when I carry the bag and its really full. Kind of like this, but smaller: https://www.amazon.com/Household-Essentials-Utility-Pockets-Reusable/dp/B08SR91P7G/ https://www.amazon.com/Household-Essentials-Utility-Pockets-... And arguing reusable bags aren't as big as disposable plastic bags or can't carry as much is laughable. Bags can come in any shape or size. I assure you there are lots of reusable bags far larger than the typical disposable plastic shopping bags. A typical disposable plastic bag is like 22" H x 12" W x 6" D fully expanded (including handles in that 22", so really less for storage, more like maybe 16" if even that). Losing the handles you're talking ~1,150 cubic inches. The bag linked above is 13" H x 22" W x 11" D not including the handles. That's ~3,140 cubic inches. Which is a bigger number? The vast majority of reusable shopping bags I've encountered and owned are much larger than standard disposable plastic shopping bags. Incredible seeing someone argue they just don't make bags bigger than average disposable shopping bags...
    - autoexec 2y ago
      I never said that no one makes larger bags, only that many of the reusable canvas bags I've seen at grocery store aren't as large. The ones offered inside the store sell for ~$1, vs the $20 bag you linked to so it should be no surprise that the $20 bag holds more.

by rurp 2y ago

scoofy 2y ago

Ehh... I have to push back here. Any annoyance ratio is one that collapses for the next generation. Ask any child about whether we should allow plastic bags that pollute our water tables and oceans or paper bags that don't, and pretty much every kid will say paper. It's the obvious choice if you're not habituated to plastic. There are lots and lots of types of inexpensive bags we could use that don't actively fuck up our waterways. Plastic bag advocates just like to pretend those don't exist because it's expedient. The same thing happened when we phased out styrofoam.

autoexec 2y ago
> Ask any child about whether we should allow plastic bags that pollute our water tables and oceans or paper bags that don't, and pretty much every kid will say paper. I suspect that'll have a lot to do with the fact that children don't go grocery shopping, and don't have to carry a bunch of items from cars, up stairs, and into their homes. They also don't give even a passing thought to the plastic bags being regularly re-used as bin liners in the home, or re-used to pick up after their dogs while on walks, or re-used for transporting items to other people's houses. Paper bags are not a reasonable alternative to plastic bags for heavy loads, wet/soiled things, times when you need to carry more than one (or maybe two) bags at a time, etc. Is it possible to manufacture an alternative bag that accomplishes all of the things that plastic bags do today? Maybe. Is such as bag widely available for the same cost? Nope. If plastic bag ban advocates want everyone onboard they'd do better to make sure that viable alternatives which are, at a minimum, at least as good as plastic bags are ready to fill in the void. Until that's the case it's going to be a massive pain to just ban what works. If plastic shopping bags were "banned" where I live, I'd just find myself needing to pay for plastic shopping bags which used to be free because I still don't have anything to replace their utility for many tasks. That'd mean that I'm producing the same amount of plastic waste as before, only now I'd be paying more and be inconvenienced in the process. Even when it comes to shopping bags used purely for shopping, many of the reusable canvas bags I've seen at stores don't hold as many items as plastic bags do, don't have handles that are as long/useful, and inconvenience me by requiring me to always have them with me and to know, in advance, how many I'm going to end up needing on every trip to the store. If you want to get people to give something up, you can spend a ton of energy and time beating the public into compliance with sticks and shaming them until they begrudgingly give up something they want, or you can just offer them something better in which case all the work is done for you. The transition from styrofoam to plastic accomplished that. No one has offered up something better.
- vel0city 2y ago
  I just keep some reusable shopping bags in the car and in my backpack. Having an extra bag can often be useful outside just shopping trips. They're far nicer than the disposable plastic bags. They can carry more weight, don't tear from sharper edges of some packages, and look nicer. Some of the bags I have in my car even have a metal wire rim around the top to help hold the bag open so soft items don't get squished when I carry the bag and its really full. Kind of like this, but smaller: https://www.amazon.com/Household-Essentials-Utility-Pockets-Reusable/dp/B08SR91P7G/ https://www.amazon.com/Household-Essentials-Utility-Pockets-... And arguing reusable bags aren't as big as disposable plastic bags or can't carry as much is laughable. Bags can come in any shape or size. I assure you there are lots of reusable bags far larger than the typical disposable plastic shopping bags. A typical disposable plastic bag is like 22" H x 12" W x 6" D fully expanded (including handles in that 22", so really less for storage, more like maybe 16" if even that). Losing the handles you're talking ~1,150 cubic inches. The bag linked above is 13" H x 22" W x 11" D not including the handles. That's ~3,140 cubic inches. Which is a bigger number? The vast majority of reusable shopping bags I've encountered and owned are much larger than standard disposable plastic shopping bags. Incredible seeing someone argue they just don't make bags bigger than average disposable shopping bags...
  - autoexec 2y ago
    I never said that no one makes larger bags, only that many of the reusable canvas bags I've seen at grocery store aren't as large. The ones offered inside the store sell for ~$1, vs the $20 bag you linked to so it should be no surprise that the $20 bag holds more.