3 ms·

You are only seeing how it is used by people that can afford something exotic they don’t need or use and not understanding what it really is engineered for- sor

by _yb2s 2y ago

You are only seeing how it is used by people that can afford something exotic they don’t need or use and not understanding what it really is engineered for- sort of like concluding the Jeep Rubicon must be a cheap commuter car because they are popular as rentals in vacation destinations where nobody goes offroad. Or seeing urban people wearing arcteryx hardshells as raincoats, and not realizing they really are functional mountaineering gear. You need to look deeper than the specs at the design and driving characteristics to understand what it is capable of. What makes a Porsche a Porsche is not a low 0-60 time. I have torn down and rebuilt every system on the vehicles, and used them in some of the most extreme conditions on the planet- deep water fording, hundreds of miles unsupported in unpopulated desert, etc. The triple door seal waterproofing and gearbox ventilation systems for deep water fording are alone really unique. You can drive a 20 year old Cayenne deep with water to the top of the grill all day long and not a drop will leak into anything. A stock even base model Cayenne is one of the few “off road supercars” ever designed and built- and is capable of such things with just the right tires. Of course, some of the rarer factory options radically improve the vehicles capabilities. I was talking about factory Cayenne options, not race modifications- but the basic design of the vehicle is also really unique to enable those capabilities. For example- other unibody SUVs are mostly on car based platforms, the Cayenne was engineered from the ground up to survive heavy off road use. It is one of the unusual creations of Ferdinand Piech- look up the other vehicles he was responsible for…

dahart 2y ago
The Cayenne’s max wading depth is just shy of 20 inches, about the same as Subaru Forester. I can find some evidence that people called the Cayenne Turbo GT a hypercar, but nobody calls the base model a supercar. Know why? It doesn’t have the engine. You completely dismissed the small family commuter engine. The engine is the primary thing that makes a high performance car high performance, and base Cayenne simply does not have a high performance engine. And so far you’ve ignored the Macan entirely. These base models don’t have the suspension or brakes or other components for good off-roading. People seem to prefer the Turbo with off-road suspension, better brakes, off road tires, and many other upgrades that together more than double the price compared to a base Cayenne. It’s true that Porsche makes a supercar, like the 911 GT3, but the base Cayenne and Macan models are just widely considered luxury SUVs and nothing more. Maybe Porsche doesn’t make very many family commuter cars, but they do make a few (that happen to sell well because they’re cheaper than sports cars.)
- _yb2s 2y ago
  The fording depth thing really makes my point so I am just going to focus on that. You can't really appreciate the Cayenne design unless you are a person that uses the vehicle in a way that pushes its limits- and have firsthand experience that other vehicles will fail in those same conditions. The specs vary a bit, but a 957 for example has a steel spring fording depth of 500mm (19.68") and air suspension depth of 555mm (21.85"). Those specs don't really tell the story though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I pulled up the 2024 Forester owners manual- and it has no factory fording depth- and says to never drive through standing water of any depth, whereas the Cayenne manual has detailed specs on depth under different configurations, and even factory instructional videos on fording technique. Few vehicles explicitly have a factory fording rating depth, and if they do it will be well below the actual physical limits to give a margin of safety. But looking at the specs ignores the massive engineering differences that make the Cayenne extremely good at fording: -Triple door seals on all of the doors -Air tight cabin with continuous positive pressure inside (although personally I keep windows down when fording) -The differentials, gearbox, etc. are all vented way high up on the vehicle with hoses, through ventilation boxes that pass only air pressure and not water -The engine intake is mounted at the top front of the engine bay behind the grille, with baffles that allow it to keep water out if moving at the right speed, even if you are much deeper than the intake depth with a bow wave over the hood -Every electrical connector is completely waterproof and submersible I was once stuck in deep wet mud half way up the doors in one of these vehicles, and it sat there for ~2 hours before I successfully recovered it, and there was no water in the transmission differential, through the door seals, etc. - something that essentially no other factory vehicle could do, even other expensive offroad vehicles. Moreover, I have crossed some really deep river crossings- such as the Mojave river in the spring after heavy rains. This was much deeper than the factory rating but just below the air intake level, where lifted jeeps were getting flooded and stranded, and it made it through without drowning. There was a drowned Jeep right next to where I entered, that was waiting for an expensive offroad recovery. I was in a completely stock base model steel spring vehicle, with only all terrain tires added. Look up "Otis"- a stock Cayenne owned by a friend of mine that has driven it 150,000 miles almost entirely offroad, through some of the most challenging overlanding routes in North America. It is not a high end model, and is unmodified other than tires and a slightly better skid plate. Some fun videos of the Touareg (Cayenne's VW cousin) operating in deep water: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GawFxOk2rjc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GawFxOk2rjc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFO8viLQ5mA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFO8viLQ5mA In both of those the water is probably some 35" deep based on going well over the top of the tires. Now consider that all of this is on a vehicle which also handles like a sports car, and can make good lap times on a race track totally stock- two totally competing engineering goals. It is not the powerful engine options alone that makes it a supercar, but attention to detail for specific engineering goals - to reliably do things other vehicles cannot - from the bottom up. A regular car with a powerful engine is still not a supercar. The Lamborghini Urus and Bentley Bentayga are also both essentially a Cayenne.

by _yb2s 2y ago

dahart 2y ago

The Cayenne’s max wading depth is just shy of 20 inches, about the same as Subaru Forester. I can find some evidence that people called the Cayenne Turbo GT a hypercar, but nobody calls the base model a supercar. Know why? It doesn’t have the engine. You completely dismissed the small family commuter engine. The engine is the primary thing that makes a high performance car high performance, and base Cayenne simply does not have a high performance engine. And so far you’ve ignored the Macan entirely. These base models don’t have the suspension or brakes or other components for good off-roading. People seem to prefer the Turbo with off-road suspension, better brakes, off road tires, and many other upgrades that together more than double the price compared to a base Cayenne. It’s true that Porsche makes a supercar, like the 911 GT3, but the base Cayenne and Macan models are just widely considered luxury SUVs and nothing more. Maybe Porsche doesn’t make very many family commuter cars, but they do make a few (that happen to sell well because they’re cheaper than sports cars.)

_yb2s 2y ago
The fording depth thing really makes my point so I am just going to focus on that. You can't really appreciate the Cayenne design unless you are a person that uses the vehicle in a way that pushes its limits- and have firsthand experience that other vehicles will fail in those same conditions. The specs vary a bit, but a 957 for example has a steel spring fording depth of 500mm (19.68") and air suspension depth of 555mm (21.85"). Those specs don't really tell the story though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I pulled up the 2024 Forester owners manual- and it has no factory fording depth- and says to never drive through standing water of any depth, whereas the Cayenne manual has detailed specs on depth under different configurations, and even factory instructional videos on fording technique. Few vehicles explicitly have a factory fording rating depth, and if they do it will be well below the actual physical limits to give a margin of safety. But looking at the specs ignores the massive engineering differences that make the Cayenne extremely good at fording: -Triple door seals on all of the doors -Air tight cabin with continuous positive pressure inside (although personally I keep windows down when fording) -The differentials, gearbox, etc. are all vented way high up on the vehicle with hoses, through ventilation boxes that pass only air pressure and not water -The engine intake is mounted at the top front of the engine bay behind the grille, with baffles that allow it to keep water out if moving at the right speed, even if you are much deeper than the intake depth with a bow wave over the hood -Every electrical connector is completely waterproof and submersible I was once stuck in deep wet mud half way up the doors in one of these vehicles, and it sat there for ~2 hours before I successfully recovered it, and there was no water in the transmission differential, through the door seals, etc. - something that essentially no other factory vehicle could do, even other expensive offroad vehicles. Moreover, I have crossed some really deep river crossings- such as the Mojave river in the spring after heavy rains. This was much deeper than the factory rating but just below the air intake level, where lifted jeeps were getting flooded and stranded, and it made it through without drowning. There was a drowned Jeep right next to where I entered, that was waiting for an expensive offroad recovery. I was in a completely stock base model steel spring vehicle, with only all terrain tires added. Look up "Otis"- a stock Cayenne owned by a friend of mine that has driven it 150,000 miles almost entirely offroad, through some of the most challenging overlanding routes in North America. It is not a high end model, and is unmodified other than tires and a slightly better skid plate. Some fun videos of the Touareg (Cayenne's VW cousin) operating in deep water: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GawFxOk2rjc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GawFxOk2rjc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFO8viLQ5mA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFO8viLQ5mA In both of those the water is probably some 35" deep based on going well over the top of the tires. Now consider that all of this is on a vehicle which also handles like a sports car, and can make good lap times on a race track totally stock- two totally competing engineering goals. It is not the powerful engine options alone that makes it a supercar, but attention to detail for specific engineering goals - to reliably do things other vehicles cannot - from the bottom up. A regular car with a powerful engine is still not a supercar. The Lamborghini Urus and Bentley Bentayga are also both essentially a Cayenne.