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The elephant in the room here is the ideological capture of the PSF via its CoC working group. It seems, at best, the power of an unaccountable body to arbitrar

The elephant in the room here is the ideological capture of the PSF via its CoC working group. It seems, at best, the power of an unaccountable body to arbitrarily enforce membership conditions (and the like), has not been properly thought through (though, of course, attempts were made). The absence of due process and accountability to the community means the members of this group have arbitrary power to shape the PSF+community however they wish. They have thus far, explicitly equivocated community criticism of the PSF with "attacking" it; equivocated mentioning the difficulties some communities face with defending these difficulties; and equivocated mentioning the identities of victims of this enforcement with the converse bigotry that people of other identities ought be harmed. Thus at this point there is no open question about whether the CoC group is enforcing the CoC or using abusing their juridical power to humiliate, defame and exclude members of the community which are critical of the PSF. This is so repulsive to any reasonable person, the behaviour here is so public and so clearly abusive. Left to their own devices, a PSF operating under this capture will alienate significant numbers of the invested members of the python community -- who are aware-of, and concerned-by, such actions. I think those of us merely observing this, with some stake in python as a language and community, ought make our repulsion clear. Since this is having, and will have, a serious deleterious impact on those most inclined to participate and invest time in projects of this kind.

linsomniac 2y ago
I was surprised that there was no mention of the latest drama in "the kinds of things the board talks about" section. I would have assumed it was something that was a topic at the board retreat. But, maybe Simon was deliberately trying to avoid mentioning specifics to today and make this a more general post? I would like to see an independent investigation into the recent events of the CoC WG, because it really appears to be indefensible.
- mjburgess 2y ago
  If I were Tim, or any others who've been bullied-out, I'd sue for defamation. Members of the WG have issued briefs, on behalf of the PSF, which list the supposed infractions that read as the worst sort of libellous yellow journalism. Eg., To equivocate discussing the past difficulties faced by victims of sexual harassment in corps with defending sexual harassment is sickening. Perhaps this group of people have grown up in twitter space where the game is obnoxiously strawmanning and rephrasing another person in order to farm outrage against them (eg., "oh so when you mentioned sexism, that means you're a sexist!"). However this conduct is now on behalf of an organisation formed in law, with legal duties and responsibilities, and now has liability for this conduct that is practically absent on twitter. This is a very serious problem for the PSF. You cannot have a working group releasing a dozen accusations of the worst kinds of bigotry, entirely false and unevidenced (etc.), on your behalf. Punishing your members, and the like. The legal liability here is incredible.
  - linsomniac 2y ago
    That's an interesting idea, but for a variety of reasons I'm fairly sure that Tim won't do that. Particularly not without a legal defense fund or some pro bono legal services secured to back it, but also because his vibe on it largely is "I've been called worse by better". edit: Probably also hard to do since the CoC WG post with all the allegations on it were against an unnamed developer, making it at least an uphill battle.
    - zahlman 2y ago
      >Probably also hard to do since the CoC WG post with all the allegations on it were against an unnamed developer, That didn't stop them in my case (https://discuss.python.org/t/im-leaving-too/58408/10 https://discuss.python.org/t/im-leaving-too/58408/10; contrast https://zahlman.github.io/dpo_archive/ https://zahlman.github.io/dpo_archive/).
    - mjburgess 2y ago
      Defamation doesnt require you to name the person, only for it to be obvious to a relevant reader who it is. The fact we're all talking about Tim kinda resolves that problem on the face of it. Whether he sues or not is less important than the PSF needing to realise what crazy liability they face for their WG posting defamation this extreme against a person.
mirashii 2y ago
There are a lot of strong assertions here, but no references for those who aren't already following along. Care to share any?
- linsomniac 2y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41234180 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41234180
- qklcv 2y ago
  It is hard to follow along, because any time someone does mention the elephant in the room the entire submission gets flagged and sinks rapidly.
MaKey 2y ago
Suspending Tim Peters for 3 months on bogus claims of misbehavior was harmful for the whole Python community. He's the guy who wrote the Zen of Python. If nothing is changed I fear that the Python community will continue to suffer. This is also another data point that confirms my dislike of Code of Conducts. At first glance they seem like a good idea, but in practice they are often used as a tool to oust people disliked by the ones with the power to enfore them. Afterwards they are used as shield from criticism.
- mjburgess 2y ago
  The issue isn't Tim, and I'd imagine that was his intention. The issue is what Tim's reasonable criticism (of PSF policy changes) provoked, ie., a list of accusations from the CoC group that were obscenely defamatory (grounds for a civil suit) and nakedly self-serving. A list of accusations with no references, no quotes, no examples to evidence them -- just a list of the most extreme kind of bigotry that no reasonable person would tolerate. Tim, and others, I'd say have given pitch-perfect good faith criticisms of the PSF carefully given with unfalting good-faith to perform the truth of these criticisms. Namely, he induced a group bullies in the middle of defining their own power to abuse others, to bully and abuse him. It is in these actions that we see, immediately, that his criticisms are accurate. The PSF may presently believe they can conduct themselves this way, and the powergrab will eventually be permitted and so on -- but they've severely underestimated the relevant power dynamic: which is not between the PSF and powerless former critics, but between the community and the PSF itself.
- at_a_remove 2y ago
  What I cannot seem to find is a comprehensive list of similar events, Code of Conduct takeovers. Otherwise, concerns can be dismissed with "Well, that was a one-off situation," whereas a long history of such things would be more convincing to those in the middle. Perhaps one could even honeypot the code to find out if the CoC types might be looking at you next. Include terms like blacklist and master and whatever else triggers them, see if you get some requests to change them, and there you go.
  - mjburgess 2y ago
yowzadave 2y ago
I don't like to nitpick word choices on HN comments, but since you used the word three times in this one: I believe you meant "equated" (to imply that two ideas are equal), and not "equivocated" (to show uncertainty, or to waffle).
- mjburgess 2y ago
  I'm using equivocation in the fallacy sense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation In most of my uses, the popular sense also applies, "the use of ambiguous language to conceal the truth or to avoid committing oneself; prevarication." If you read the briefs put out by the WG against Tim and others, they are engaged in equivocation which has the effect of equating, say, mentioning the difficulties experienced in a sexist work organisations with advocacy of sexism (the converse position).
mikrotikker 2y ago
Same thing happened to the Linux kernel via the same kind of self appointed CoC group. It's absolutely disgusting.
- RMPR 2y ago
  What situation are you referring to?

linsomniac 2y ago

I was surprised that there was no mention of the latest drama in "the kinds of things the board talks about" section. I would have assumed it was something that was a topic at the board retreat. But, maybe Simon was deliberately trying to avoid mentioning specifics to today and make this a more general post? I would like to see an independent investigation into the recent events of the CoC WG, because it really appears to be indefensible.

mjburgess 2y ago
If I were Tim, or any others who've been bullied-out, I'd sue for defamation. Members of the WG have issued briefs, on behalf of the PSF, which list the supposed infractions that read as the worst sort of libellous yellow journalism. Eg., To equivocate discussing the past difficulties faced by victims of sexual harassment in corps with defending sexual harassment is sickening. Perhaps this group of people have grown up in twitter space where the game is obnoxiously strawmanning and rephrasing another person in order to farm outrage against them (eg., "oh so when you mentioned sexism, that means you're a sexist!"). However this conduct is now on behalf of an organisation formed in law, with legal duties and responsibilities, and now has liability for this conduct that is practically absent on twitter. This is a very serious problem for the PSF. You cannot have a working group releasing a dozen accusations of the worst kinds of bigotry, entirely false and unevidenced (etc.), on your behalf. Punishing your members, and the like. The legal liability here is incredible.
- linsomniac 2y ago
  That's an interesting idea, but for a variety of reasons I'm fairly sure that Tim won't do that. Particularly not without a legal defense fund or some pro bono legal services secured to back it, but also because his vibe on it largely is "I've been called worse by better". edit: Probably also hard to do since the CoC WG post with all the allegations on it were against an unnamed developer, making it at least an uphill battle.
  - zahlman 2y ago
    >Probably also hard to do since the CoC WG post with all the allegations on it were against an unnamed developer, That didn't stop them in my case (https://discuss.python.org/t/im-leaving-too/58408/10 https://discuss.python.org/t/im-leaving-too/58408/10; contrast https://zahlman.github.io/dpo_archive/ https://zahlman.github.io/dpo_archive/).
  - mjburgess 2y ago
    Defamation doesnt require you to name the person, only for it to be obvious to a relevant reader who it is. The fact we're all talking about Tim kinda resolves that problem on the face of it. Whether he sues or not is less important than the PSF needing to realise what crazy liability they face for their WG posting defamation this extreme against a person.

mirashii 2y ago

There are a lot of strong assertions here, but no references for those who aren't already following along. Care to share any?

linsomniac 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41234180 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41234180
qklcv 2y ago
It is hard to follow along, because any time someone does mention the elephant in the room the entire submission gets flagged and sinks rapidly.

MaKey 2y ago

Suspending Tim Peters for 3 months on bogus claims of misbehavior was harmful for the whole Python community. He's the guy who wrote the Zen of Python. If nothing is changed I fear that the Python community will continue to suffer. This is also another data point that confirms my dislike of Code of Conducts. At first glance they seem like a good idea, but in practice they are often used as a tool to oust people disliked by the ones with the power to enfore them. Afterwards they are used as shield from criticism.

mjburgess 2y ago
The issue isn't Tim, and I'd imagine that was his intention. The issue is what Tim's reasonable criticism (of PSF policy changes) provoked, ie., a list of accusations from the CoC group that were obscenely defamatory (grounds for a civil suit) and nakedly self-serving. A list of accusations with no references, no quotes, no examples to evidence them -- just a list of the most extreme kind of bigotry that no reasonable person would tolerate. Tim, and others, I'd say have given pitch-perfect good faith criticisms of the PSF carefully given with unfalting good-faith to perform the truth of these criticisms. Namely, he induced a group bullies in the middle of defining their own power to abuse others, to bully and abuse him. It is in these actions that we see, immediately, that his criticisms are accurate. The PSF may presently believe they can conduct themselves this way, and the powergrab will eventually be permitted and so on -- but they've severely underestimated the relevant power dynamic: which is not between the PSF and powerless former critics, but between the community and the PSF itself.
at_a_remove 2y ago
What I cannot seem to find is a comprehensive list of similar events, Code of Conduct takeovers. Otherwise, concerns can be dismissed with "Well, that was a one-off situation," whereas a long history of such things would be more convincing to those in the middle. Perhaps one could even honeypot the code to find out if the CoC types might be looking at you next. Include terms like blacklist and master and whatever else triggers them, see if you get some requests to change them, and there you go.
- mjburgess 2y ago

yowzadave 2y ago

I don't like to nitpick word choices on HN comments, but since you used the word three times in this one: I believe you meant "equated" (to imply that two ideas are equal), and not "equivocated" (to show uncertainty, or to waffle).

mjburgess 2y ago
I'm using equivocation in the fallacy sense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation In most of my uses, the popular sense also applies, "the use of ambiguous language to conceal the truth or to avoid committing oneself; prevarication." If you read the briefs put out by the WG against Tim and others, they are engaged in equivocation which has the effect of equating, say, mentioning the difficulties experienced in a sexist work organisations with advocacy of sexism (the converse position).

mikrotikker 2y ago

Same thing happened to the Linux kernel via the same kind of self appointed CoC group. It's absolutely disgusting.

RMPR 2y ago
What situation are you referring to?