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Dutch cyclists also do all these things. As a driver in the Netherlands, you'll quickly learn that cyclists don't stick to any rules, they will cross red lights

Dutch cyclists also do all these things. As a driver in the Netherlands, you'll quickly learn that cyclists don't stick to any rules, they will cross red lights, use the wrong lane, use the sidewalk if it saves them 2 seconds, ignore yield signs etc, and in general they will come from every direction imaginable. In a car, the onus is still on you to pay more attention. Defensive driving style is the norm - assume mistakes will be made and rules will be ignored. After all, you're driving a 1-2 ton machine whereas a cyclists will be generally be <100kg at slower speeds, bike included. That said, road design of course matters a lot. In the Netherlands, bike lanes in 50 kph (~30 mph) zones are preferably separated by a curbstone. Meaning it is often physically impossible to cross into the car lane. Bike lanes for roads with higher speed limits are rare in urban areas, and nearly always curb-separated where they exist. Intersections will have islands for cyclists and pedestrians to pause. Most residential areas are 30 kph (~20mph) zones, where most bike lanes have dashed lines. Counterintuitively, cars are expected to drive with two wheels on the bike path in these cases. This prevents cyclists from being in the car's blind spot[0]. [0]: See example from wikimedia: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Fietsstrook_Herenweg_Oudorp.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Fietsstr...

nottorp 2y ago
Frankly the one time I visited NL I was afraid of cyclists as a pedestrian. Not to mention that when getting out of my hotel there was a road and a bicycle path but no pedestrian sidewalk for the first half a kilometer...
- aden1ne 2y ago
  That sounds like an odd setup. Any chance this was near the airport? Also did you visit the Netherlands, or only Amsterdam? Because honestly, Amsterdam is in a league of its own with the hordes of tourists who have no clue what they are doing on a bike.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    > That sounds like an odd setup. Any chance this was near the airport? No, but near the edge of the town. > Also did you visit the Netherlands, or only Amsterdam? Never been to Amsterdam, just two small towns on the other end, towards Germany. My hotel was at the edge of Enschede.
- zezcat 2y ago
  I cannot agree more, the cyclists and all the high speed scooters are crazy in Amsterdam. Horrible experience. Everytime trying to cross a roads it felt like I am risking my life.
- guappa 2y ago
  Ah yes, cyclists love to complain about the evil car drivers. They never mention all the times they are a danger to pedestrians somehow. In DK plenty of bus stops the bus opens directly onto a bike lane, and they won't stop to let people out of course.
WalterBright 2y ago
Is it really too much to ask cyclists to stay in the bike lane? not draft behind cars? don't wander into the oncoming traffic lane? What good is a lawsuit going to do for a crippled cyclist? I once took a performance driving class. One of the lessons is "be predictable". The other drivers have an excellent chance at missing your car if you're moving in a predictable fashion.
- lenlorijn 2y ago
  You say this as if cars adhere to the rules given at all times. The difference is that bikes do it at their own peril and cars do it at the peril of others. Give cyclists good infrastructure separate from cars and they'll use it.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    I rarely see cars leave their lane. The bike lanes around here are wide, clear, and dry. There is no excuse. They don't even glance back over their shoulder before veering into the car lane. That's pretty perilous.
    - lenlorijn 2y ago
      I'm sorry but anecdotal evidence is barely any evidence at all. I could list a very large number of news reports of cars ramming in to houses an businesses, which I can promise you are not built in a lane. Bike lanes and car lanes should be physically separated, sure for bikes to not veer out of lane, but more importantly to keep cars in theirs. In any of these situations cars are still the ones bringing a 1.5k bundle of glass and steel to the fight. Just take a quick look at https://x.com/WorldBollard https://x.com/WorldBollard for numerous examples of cars going all over the place and making a mess of it.
- seszett 2y ago
  Cyclists rarely leave the bike lane for pleasure, it's usually either because a car is parked on the bike lane, pedestrians are walking on it, or because there's litter or a bad surface (bikes are much more sensitive to uneven road surface, but at the same time bike lanes, especially those that are separated from the road, are often built with lower standards than the streets). Reading your comment one would think cyclists are just suicidal for the fun of it, but try to think of them as humans who have a goal to achieve and are trying to achieve it with the best efficiency/safety balance they can find, like other people. Cars are everywhere on the road, impeding and endangering cyclists, so it's often a matter of trying to find the "least dangerous" way to do something, and that might even involve getting on the wrong side of the road at times. But it's not for fun.

nottorp 2y ago

Frankly the one time I visited NL I was afraid of cyclists as a pedestrian. Not to mention that when getting out of my hotel there was a road and a bicycle path but no pedestrian sidewalk for the first half a kilometer...

aden1ne 2y ago
That sounds like an odd setup. Any chance this was near the airport? Also did you visit the Netherlands, or only Amsterdam? Because honestly, Amsterdam is in a league of its own with the hordes of tourists who have no clue what they are doing on a bike.
- nottorp 2y ago
  > That sounds like an odd setup. Any chance this was near the airport? No, but near the edge of the town. > Also did you visit the Netherlands, or only Amsterdam? Never been to Amsterdam, just two small towns on the other end, towards Germany. My hotel was at the edge of Enschede.
zezcat 2y ago
I cannot agree more, the cyclists and all the high speed scooters are crazy in Amsterdam. Horrible experience. Everytime trying to cross a roads it felt like I am risking my life.
guappa 2y ago
Ah yes, cyclists love to complain about the evil car drivers. They never mention all the times they are a danger to pedestrians somehow. In DK plenty of bus stops the bus opens directly onto a bike lane, and they won't stop to let people out of course.

WalterBright 2y ago

Is it really too much to ask cyclists to stay in the bike lane? not draft behind cars? don't wander into the oncoming traffic lane? What good is a lawsuit going to do for a crippled cyclist? I once took a performance driving class. One of the lessons is "be predictable". The other drivers have an excellent chance at missing your car if you're moving in a predictable fashion.

lenlorijn 2y ago
You say this as if cars adhere to the rules given at all times. The difference is that bikes do it at their own peril and cars do it at the peril of others. Give cyclists good infrastructure separate from cars and they'll use it.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  I rarely see cars leave their lane. The bike lanes around here are wide, clear, and dry. There is no excuse. They don't even glance back over their shoulder before veering into the car lane. That's pretty perilous.
  - lenlorijn 2y ago
    I'm sorry but anecdotal evidence is barely any evidence at all. I could list a very large number of news reports of cars ramming in to houses an businesses, which I can promise you are not built in a lane. Bike lanes and car lanes should be physically separated, sure for bikes to not veer out of lane, but more importantly to keep cars in theirs. In any of these situations cars are still the ones bringing a 1.5k bundle of glass and steel to the fight. Just take a quick look at https://x.com/WorldBollard https://x.com/WorldBollard for numerous examples of cars going all over the place and making a mess of it.
seszett 2y ago
Cyclists rarely leave the bike lane for pleasure, it's usually either because a car is parked on the bike lane, pedestrians are walking on it, or because there's litter or a bad surface (bikes are much more sensitive to uneven road surface, but at the same time bike lanes, especially those that are separated from the road, are often built with lower standards than the streets). Reading your comment one would think cyclists are just suicidal for the fun of it, but try to think of them as humans who have a goal to achieve and are trying to achieve it with the best efficiency/safety balance they can find, like other people. Cars are everywhere on the road, impeding and endangering cyclists, so it's often a matter of trying to find the "least dangerous" way to do something, and that might even involve getting on the wrong side of the road at times. But it's not for fun.