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Inclusivity is preached, but if you are from some social background where gender identity is not valued, and you do not hide that, you are not welcome in the pr

Inclusivity is preached, but if you are from some social background where gender identity is not valued, and you do not hide that, you are not welcome in the project.

latexr 2y ago
As per the Paradox of Tolerance: > (…) if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them. Karl Popper describes the paradox as arising from the fact that, in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
- blueflow 2y ago
  Who is the intolerant in your line of thinking?
  - latexr 2y ago
    I realised my previous comment lacked some context and was adding to it but then saw you replied, so I’ll address it here instead. There is a large difference between not valuing something and devaluing it. The former is neutral, it does not care what people engage in within the boundaries of not causing harm; the latter is actively against something and tries to stop people from doing it (we can say it is intolerant to it). I’m not aware of an example of someone having been neutral on gender identity in the “the project”¹ and having been made unwelcome. But I’m not a Pythonista myself, so I’m not intimately aware of the internals. Could you share a concrete example? Preferably one that includes some degree of community support, not just the ramblings of a single individual, as the latter would not be representative. ¹ It’s unclear what you’re referring to. The PSF? The Pyhon language core? The Python community?
    - blueflow 2y ago
      I see where you are going there, not affirming peoples gender identity can be seen as intolerance. Let me ask you a question. Would you argue the same for national identity? Would you feel safe in a community where user profiles feature the flag of the country they identify with? Where its normal to name your country with your name? You probably wouldn't want to affirm that, either. It gives "bogus criteria" vibes like from the hacker ethics. You might now understand how i and some others feel about gender identity. Some people want to have a social life without dealing with that. And this isn't accepted by people who want affirmation for their gender expression, regardless of cis or trans. For ¹, i meant it in a generic fashion, as python is not the only project where this happens.
      - latexr 2y ago
        > I see where you are going there, not affirming peoples gender identity can be seen as intolerance. It seems that what you understood from my comment is that not being actively positive about something is being intolerant. That is not what I said, I only touched on neutrality and negativity, not positivity. “Tolerance”, after all, does not mean “active support” but “acceptance”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toleration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toleration Again, there is a large difference between being neutral on something and being against it. > Would you feel safe in a community where user profiles feature the flag of the country they identify with? Where its normal to name your country with your name? Yes? People do that all the time on social media, putting a flag near their name. Sometimes they even do it to support other countries (such as Ukraine). > You might now understand how i and some others feel about gender identity. Not at all. If anything, I’m even more confused. I’m curious why you wouldn’t feel safe in such a community, and why “safe” is the word you chose. What’s the danger? I mean, in the country case I could see a point: there’s tribalism and rivalries amongst countries which can lead to war, but never have I felt unsafe around someone who expressed their gender identity. > Some people want to have a social life without dealing with that. Just recently I spent several days in a group where one person used pronouns fluidly. They were incredibly sweet, positive, good natured, and open-minded. I’m not sure what is there to “deal with”. Perhaps this is related to different countries and cultures. One thing I want to make very clear, especially considering how you stated the previous comment, is that I’m not calling you intolerant, or a bigot, or any other insult. I don’t know you, and it wouldn’t be right to judge you as a human from a single random comment. I am trying to understand your point and what to you is (apparently) scary or wrong about gender identity.
- richbell 2y ago
  Lest we forget that Popper was describing a specific type of "intolerance" that existed in the 1940s. > "In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise."

Inclusivity is preached, but if you are from some social background where gender identity is not valued, and you do not hide that, you are not welcome in the project.

latexr 2y ago

As per the Paradox of Tolerance: > (…) if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them. Karl Popper describes the paradox as arising from the fact that, in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

blueflow 2y ago
Who is the intolerant in your line of thinking?
- latexr 2y ago
  I realised my previous comment lacked some context and was adding to it but then saw you replied, so I’ll address it here instead. There is a large difference between not valuing something and devaluing it. The former is neutral, it does not care what people engage in within the boundaries of not causing harm; the latter is actively against something and tries to stop people from doing it (we can say it is intolerant to it). I’m not aware of an example of someone having been neutral on gender identity in the “the project”¹ and having been made unwelcome. But I’m not a Pythonista myself, so I’m not intimately aware of the internals. Could you share a concrete example? Preferably one that includes some degree of community support, not just the ramblings of a single individual, as the latter would not be representative. ¹ It’s unclear what you’re referring to. The PSF? The Pyhon language core? The Python community?
  - blueflow 2y ago
    I see where you are going there, not affirming peoples gender identity can be seen as intolerance. Let me ask you a question. Would you argue the same for national identity? Would you feel safe in a community where user profiles feature the flag of the country they identify with? Where its normal to name your country with your name? You probably wouldn't want to affirm that, either. It gives "bogus criteria" vibes like from the hacker ethics. You might now understand how i and some others feel about gender identity. Some people want to have a social life without dealing with that. And this isn't accepted by people who want affirmation for their gender expression, regardless of cis or trans. For ¹, i meant it in a generic fashion, as python is not the only project where this happens.
    - latexr 2y ago
      > I see where you are going there, not affirming peoples gender identity can be seen as intolerance. It seems that what you understood from my comment is that not being actively positive about something is being intolerant. That is not what I said, I only touched on neutrality and negativity, not positivity. “Tolerance”, after all, does not mean “active support” but “acceptance”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toleration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toleration Again, there is a large difference between being neutral on something and being against it. > Would you feel safe in a community where user profiles feature the flag of the country they identify with? Where its normal to name your country with your name? Yes? People do that all the time on social media, putting a flag near their name. Sometimes they even do it to support other countries (such as Ukraine). > You might now understand how i and some others feel about gender identity. Not at all. If anything, I’m even more confused. I’m curious why you wouldn’t feel safe in such a community, and why “safe” is the word you chose. What’s the danger? I mean, in the country case I could see a point: there’s tribalism and rivalries amongst countries which can lead to war, but never have I felt unsafe around someone who expressed their gender identity. > Some people want to have a social life without dealing with that. Just recently I spent several days in a group where one person used pronouns fluidly. They were incredibly sweet, positive, good natured, and open-minded. I’m not sure what is there to “deal with”. Perhaps this is related to different countries and cultures. One thing I want to make very clear, especially considering how you stated the previous comment, is that I’m not calling you intolerant, or a bigot, or any other insult. I don’t know you, and it wouldn’t be right to judge you as a human from a single random comment. I am trying to understand your point and what to you is (apparently) scary or wrong about gender identity.
richbell 2y ago
Lest we forget that Popper was describing a specific type of "intolerance" that existed in the 1940s. > "In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise."