3 ms·

I think a lot of this comes down to perception of ROI for management. If the employment market is giving you qualified candidates at the price you seek in-offic

by mgh95 2y ago

I think a lot of this comes down to perception of ROI for management. If the employment market is giving you qualified candidates at the price you seek in-office, why would you expose yourself to risk? I'm in this situation now where I'm hiring early employees and looking to grow, and about 90% of the decisions is how well can I derisk this hire. I don't need elite developers; I need competent, conscientious "75%" developers. It doesn't make sense to spend time interviewing, onboarding, and hiring, just to expose myself to another risk factor. Your friend was probably not thinking "fair" or "unfair", rather, what is the employment market bringing him.

bjornsing 2y ago
> Your friend was probably not thinking "fair" or "unfair", rather, what is the employment market bringing him. In a relatively free labor market (like e.g. California’s) that perspective is fine with me, because you probably have to pay more for the conscientious “75%” developers you need. But Sweden has a heavily regulated and unionized labor market where differences in pay are typically motivated by the collectively agreed “fairness”. I can assure you that your argument would have been just as foreign for my acquaintance.
- mgh95 2y ago
  If I'm being totally honest, I am not sure it would be totally foreign. Entrepreneurship in Sweden (at least according to a quick google search) is relatively rare. Most of the entrepreneurs coming from the nordics I have interacted with have been decidedly less social contract oriented than even I am to the point where they seem almost like Gordon Gekko caricatures as though they are attempting to behave in a manner they think someone attempting to operate in a market-driven context would act. I am not sure that this argument would be totally foreign to your acquaintance, at least based upon the entrepreneurs coming from that region of the world in the USA.
  - bjornsing 2y ago
    > If I'm being totally honest, I am not sure it would be totally foreign. I think I simply have more information than you do in this case. :) (Because I know the person we’re talking about, and because I’ve worked in Swedish startups for 20 years, my own and other’s.)
-mlv 2y ago
If getting the best developers for your budget isn't a priority, hiring remotely allows you to stretch your runway further. I wanted to reply to your comment re:Nordics but it seems it reached a limit to comment depth, your experiences are probably related to interacting with a biased sample, a quick google tells me that on average only a couple hundred Swedes immigrate to the US per year.
- mgh95 2y ago
  > If getting the best developers for your budget isn't a priority, hiring remotely allows you to stretch your runway further. If I wanted to stretch my budget, I would go to LATAM. Developers marketing themselves as "go remote, stretch your budget further" will see just how far it can stretch. I'm hiring in the USA because my business requires knowledge of the US business environment (benefits management) and require in-person because it's easier to prevent mistakes which can attract the ire of regulators when you are small and don't have formal review processes. > I wanted to reply to your comment re:Nordics but it seems it reached a limit to comment depth, your experiences are probably related to interacting with a biased sample, a quick google tells me that on average only a couple hundred Swedes immigrate to the US per year. Possible, and I didn't interact with only Swedes; I interacted with mostly Norwegians and a few Swedes, so I may be generalizing somewhat. But it really seemed like there was a collective sense of "I need to act as ruthless as possible to run a business here". I don't think American business customs are well understood in practical application.
swiftcoder 2y ago
> If the employment market is giving you qualified candidates at the price you seek in-office Is the employment market actually giving you that? Anecdotally, I knew a handful of FAANG engineers with 10+ years experience who had gone full remote before the pandemic, and dozens more during/since. Those are the creme-de-la-creme of the employment market, and they are all hanging out at startups who are willing to play ball on full remote, to get access to talent they otherwise couldn't remotely afford...
- mgh95 2y ago
  > Is the employment market actually giving you that? Yes. Not all applications benefit from FAANG experience. There is a lot of work to be done that pays in the 130-200 range that isn't necessarily cutting edge. I should add, benefits are excellent (major medical) and it's a private office. > Anecdotally, I knew a handful of FAANG engineers with 10+ years experience who had gone full remote before the pandemic, and dozens more during/since. Those are the creme-de-la-creme of the employment market, and they are all hanging out at startups who are willing to play ball on full remote, to get access to talent they otherwise couldn't remotely afford... I can believe it. Sometimes, you just need technical excellence to bring a product to market, otherwise you fail. But other times, you can simply apply well understood paradigms to well understood markets and have excellent financial returns. It's the difference between an excellent business and an excellent product. When you have a choice, choose the excellent business.
- consteval 2y ago
  > Is the employment market actually giving you that? Yes, because the employment market is not a free market. You can find (virtually) any employees your heart desires, because workers are highly motivated to not die. In addition, they have no bargaining power, meaning they take what they can get. They don't have visibility either - hiring is a perfect black box to them. The scales are not only not balanced, they're almost completely tipped. This is why companies can pay below market and still get a constant supply of (shitty) employees. If you simply lower your standards, you can get infinite employees. They could hire children if they wanted, and it would be easy. They could pay 50 cents an hour if they wanted. Luckily, the laws prevent this - but it's most certainly NOT an issue of demand. There's a high demand among children to work and there's a high demand among laborers to work for poverty wages.
benterix 2y ago
That's kind of normal so I only pick up companies that offer remote only positions with no strings attached.
- mgh95 2y ago
  That's fine? It's a market. Work for whoever is offering mutually agreeable terms for as long as that remains the case.
  - benterix 2y ago
    Of course. That basically divides the market into 3 segments: (1) companies that fully enforce RTO, (2) those that partly enforce RTO ("hybrid"), and (3) those that give you a choice - full WFH or coming to the office when you wish. Based on what I observe in my niche, (3) have an enormous advantage when it comes to both hiring and maintaining senior talent.

by mgh95 2y ago

bjornsing 2y ago

> Your friend was probably not thinking "fair" or "unfair", rather, what is the employment market bringing him. In a relatively free labor market (like e.g. California’s) that perspective is fine with me, because you probably have to pay more for the conscientious “75%” developers you need. But Sweden has a heavily regulated and unionized labor market where differences in pay are typically motivated by the collectively agreed “fairness”. I can assure you that your argument would have been just as foreign for my acquaintance.

mgh95 2y ago
If I'm being totally honest, I am not sure it would be totally foreign. Entrepreneurship in Sweden (at least according to a quick google search) is relatively rare. Most of the entrepreneurs coming from the nordics I have interacted with have been decidedly less social contract oriented than even I am to the point where they seem almost like Gordon Gekko caricatures as though they are attempting to behave in a manner they think someone attempting to operate in a market-driven context would act. I am not sure that this argument would be totally foreign to your acquaintance, at least based upon the entrepreneurs coming from that region of the world in the USA.
- bjornsing 2y ago
  > If I'm being totally honest, I am not sure it would be totally foreign. I think I simply have more information than you do in this case. :) (Because I know the person we’re talking about, and because I’ve worked in Swedish startups for 20 years, my own and other’s.)

-mlv 2y ago

If getting the best developers for your budget isn't a priority, hiring remotely allows you to stretch your runway further. I wanted to reply to your comment re:Nordics but it seems it reached a limit to comment depth, your experiences are probably related to interacting with a biased sample, a quick google tells me that on average only a couple hundred Swedes immigrate to the US per year.

mgh95 2y ago
> If getting the best developers for your budget isn't a priority, hiring remotely allows you to stretch your runway further. If I wanted to stretch my budget, I would go to LATAM. Developers marketing themselves as "go remote, stretch your budget further" will see just how far it can stretch. I'm hiring in the USA because my business requires knowledge of the US business environment (benefits management) and require in-person because it's easier to prevent mistakes which can attract the ire of regulators when you are small and don't have formal review processes. > I wanted to reply to your comment re:Nordics but it seems it reached a limit to comment depth, your experiences are probably related to interacting with a biased sample, a quick google tells me that on average only a couple hundred Swedes immigrate to the US per year. Possible, and I didn't interact with only Swedes; I interacted with mostly Norwegians and a few Swedes, so I may be generalizing somewhat. But it really seemed like there was a collective sense of "I need to act as ruthless as possible to run a business here". I don't think American business customs are well understood in practical application.

swiftcoder 2y ago

> If the employment market is giving you qualified candidates at the price you seek in-office Is the employment market actually giving you that? Anecdotally, I knew a handful of FAANG engineers with 10+ years experience who had gone full remote before the pandemic, and dozens more during/since. Those are the creme-de-la-creme of the employment market, and they are all hanging out at startups who are willing to play ball on full remote, to get access to talent they otherwise couldn't remotely afford...

mgh95 2y ago
> Is the employment market actually giving you that? Yes. Not all applications benefit from FAANG experience. There is a lot of work to be done that pays in the 130-200 range that isn't necessarily cutting edge. I should add, benefits are excellent (major medical) and it's a private office. > Anecdotally, I knew a handful of FAANG engineers with 10+ years experience who had gone full remote before the pandemic, and dozens more during/since. Those are the creme-de-la-creme of the employment market, and they are all hanging out at startups who are willing to play ball on full remote, to get access to talent they otherwise couldn't remotely afford... I can believe it. Sometimes, you just need technical excellence to bring a product to market, otherwise you fail. But other times, you can simply apply well understood paradigms to well understood markets and have excellent financial returns. It's the difference between an excellent business and an excellent product. When you have a choice, choose the excellent business.
consteval 2y ago
> Is the employment market actually giving you that? Yes, because the employment market is not a free market. You can find (virtually) any employees your heart desires, because workers are highly motivated to not die. In addition, they have no bargaining power, meaning they take what they can get. They don't have visibility either - hiring is a perfect black box to them. The scales are not only not balanced, they're almost completely tipped. This is why companies can pay below market and still get a constant supply of (shitty) employees. If you simply lower your standards, you can get infinite employees. They could hire children if they wanted, and it would be easy. They could pay 50 cents an hour if they wanted. Luckily, the laws prevent this - but it's most certainly NOT an issue of demand. There's a high demand among children to work and there's a high demand among laborers to work for poverty wages.

benterix 2y ago

That's kind of normal so I only pick up companies that offer remote only positions with no strings attached.

mgh95 2y ago
That's fine? It's a market. Work for whoever is offering mutually agreeable terms for as long as that remains the case.
- benterix 2y ago
  Of course. That basically divides the market into 3 segments: (1) companies that fully enforce RTO, (2) those that partly enforce RTO ("hybrid"), and (3) those that give you a choice - full WFH or coming to the office when you wish. Based on what I observe in my niche, (3) have an enormous advantage when it comes to both hiring and maintaining senior talent.