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It seems pretty clear to me that this is for Valve's long-awaited standalone VR headset, Deckard. What other reason would they have to support Gorilla Tag on AR

It seems pretty clear to me that this is for Valve's long-awaited standalone VR headset, Deckard. What other reason would they have to support Gorilla Tag on ARM? https://x.com/SadlyItsBradley/status/1837210246076588500 https://x.com/SadlyItsBradley/status/1837210246076588500 Compatibility with your existing Steam library out of the box will be a huge competitive advantage for Deckard over Meta Quest.

simooooo 2y ago
It should be called DeckHead
- unwind 2y ago
  But "Blade Runner" [1]! [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Deckard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Deckard
LorenDB 2y ago
And with Waydroid support, games designed for Quest or other Android-based headsets could run on Deckard as well.
dagmx 2y ago
Imho it’s unlikely this is for natively running on a standalone headset. The overhead of translation alone would be just burning already limited compute budgets. The other games on their list are too demanding for untethered play in the wattage one would have on a face mounted device. IMHO gorilla tag here is just a red herring. IMHO this is just valve hedging the bet that ARM machines become more popular , and future steamdeck like devices might use ARM. It would make sense that they test SteamVR running with proton and tethered to a headset rather than directly connected. Imho, that’s the more straightforward explanation for this. The game is just a test bed for tethered play.
- Log_out_ 2y ago
  Could split it at the image generation layer? GPU work is done on the headset, sim is running on external machine.But then why use arm?
- jorvi 2y ago
  > Imho it’s unlikely this is for natively running on a standalone headset. The overhead of translation alone would be just burning already limited compute budgets. I wonder if with both Windows and Valve getting into ARM64, that will bring significant enough pressure on the market for ARM OEMs (and ARM itself) to start including a x86-transpilation mode similar to the one Apple has in their M-series of CPUs to increase the performance of Rosetta2.
  - dagmx 2y ago
    Afaik the Snapdragon X cores include the memory ordering mode that the M series have as well.
- bloqs 2y ago
  Yeah tethered with a newer generation steam link wireless protocol would be great. They move everything forwards whenever they try something new
- modeless 2y ago
  I think you're right that they wouldn't ship Gorilla Tag this way. For a game that big I'm sure they can work with the developer to ship a native version. But for internal testing of a headset it would make sense to use this version in advance of availability of a native port. The games that will ship this way will probably mostly be non-VR games that would never get ported otherwise. So you can play your Steam library full of non-VR x86 Windows PC games on a giant virtual screen in VR.
  - dagmx 2y ago
    I think you’re perhaps over indexing on the one game in the list. The other games in the list have no VR mode at all. So they could run standalone in a flat screen view, but with fairly poor performance. Gorilla tag also has an ARM version already for Quest. So why would valve not just start from there? The Quest line of products use effectively the only SoC that Valve would have access to anyway for the XR space. Imho desktop and tethered playing are far more likely targets. I think Deckard might show up someday but it’s become a vessel for everyone’s hopes and dreams.
chithanh 2y ago
It seems pretty clear to me that the main target of this is ARM Chromebooks, at least for now. As these are the only products currently shipping in any relevant numbers where this makes sense.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Mobile?
- hsjdhdvsk 2y ago
  Arm windows laptops?
  - chithanh 2y ago
    You don't need Proton for that, and the article talks about Valve testing proton-arm64.
- gpderetta 2y ago
  An ARM based steam deck seems more likely.
  - chithanh 2y ago
    But unlike ARM Chromebooks, an ARM Steam Deck does not exist today, and will not exist until at least November 2025 per Valve statements. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-09/new-steam-deck-with-oled-screen-more-storage-coming-from-valve https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-09/new-steam... (archived link w/o paywall: https://archive.md/VWvsW https://archive.md/VWvsW )
    - gpderetta 2y ago
      I think it is pretty clear that Valve plays the long game. Proton existed for years before SD was released.
      - 2y ago
jillesvangurp 2y ago
I don't think this is about the hardware necessarily. They probably make more money from the Steam store and there are some notable ARM based platforms where you currently can't use Steam and where they are not able to sell games. Macs would be a big juicy target, for example. If they can get emulation working well enough with proton on that, that's a huge market. Lots of people with disposable income on there that could be buying lots of games. And Apple is doing similar things as well so there might be some opportunity to tap into what they are doing.
- modeless 2y ago
  As much as it sounds like it would make sense, I haven't seen any hints that they are developing Proton for macOS. That seems like it would be evident from open source changes, if it was happening. I think Valve is reluctant to get any closer to Apple, or any large platform owner for that matter. They want to stay independent and own their own destiny. They even tried to get away from Microsoft with Steam Machines. It failed back then, but the Steam Deck is the continuation of that effort.
- sangnoir 2y ago
  iPhones and iPads too. Valve opening a Steam store on iOS devices is the stuff of Apple's nightmares.
  - happymellon 2y ago
    Only in Europe. Please give us 30% of Steam. Tnx.
- Novosell 2y ago
  It isn't a huge market though. Mac has never been particularly big for gaming, they've always come in very low on the steam hardware survey. Now, post-ARM, it's beat by Linux even.
  - FroshKiller 2y ago
    I don't think the Steam hardware survey is representative of the market size. Most people with Macs are accustomed to games that should run just fine on them never getting released, which means there often isn't any point to installing Steam on a Mac in the first place. Therefore they wouldn't be represented even though they are gamers, they spend money, and they have Macs. I don't have a PC for personal use, but I do have a lot of game consoles, an M1 MacBook Pro, and an M2 Mac mini. There are lots of games like Pizza Tower that look fun to me, do not have a Mac version, but do have a Switch version. So I wind up spending money on Switch games that would've gone to Steam if the publisher had bothered with a macOS release. While I do have Steam installed on my M1 and M2, I rarely launch it because I've only bought eight games off Steam in two years because of this dynamic, meaning I haven't even participated in the survey myself. My Steam account is over 20 years old and has a healthy library from when I was a PC gamer. I'd say my money's on the table, but my money's in Nintendo's wallet. But I'd really rather be buying macOS versions!
madeofpalk 2y ago
This does not seem clear to me. My initial guess would be ARM based Steam Deck (or similar handhelds). But generally, what is clear to me is that ARM is slowly becoming a lot more viable for general purpose computing. Apple's completely made the shift, and Microsoft seems to be persuing it for laptops at least finally. ARM seems like a great match for handhelds, if it wasn't for the compat issues.

simooooo 2y ago

It should be called DeckHead

unwind 2y ago
But "Blade Runner" [1]! [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Deckard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Deckard

LorenDB 2y ago

And with Waydroid support, games designed for Quest or other Android-based headsets could run on Deckard as well.

dagmx 2y ago

Imho it’s unlikely this is for natively running on a standalone headset. The overhead of translation alone would be just burning already limited compute budgets. The other games on their list are too demanding for untethered play in the wattage one would have on a face mounted device. IMHO gorilla tag here is just a red herring. IMHO this is just valve hedging the bet that ARM machines become more popular , and future steamdeck like devices might use ARM. It would make sense that they test SteamVR running with proton and tethered to a headset rather than directly connected. Imho, that’s the more straightforward explanation for this. The game is just a test bed for tethered play.

Log_out_ 2y ago
Could split it at the image generation layer? GPU work is done on the headset, sim is running on external machine.But then why use arm?
jorvi 2y ago
> Imho it’s unlikely this is for natively running on a standalone headset. The overhead of translation alone would be just burning already limited compute budgets. I wonder if with both Windows and Valve getting into ARM64, that will bring significant enough pressure on the market for ARM OEMs (and ARM itself) to start including a x86-transpilation mode similar to the one Apple has in their M-series of CPUs to increase the performance of Rosetta2.
- dagmx 2y ago
  Afaik the Snapdragon X cores include the memory ordering mode that the M series have as well.
bloqs 2y ago
Yeah tethered with a newer generation steam link wireless protocol would be great. They move everything forwards whenever they try something new
modeless 2y ago
I think you're right that they wouldn't ship Gorilla Tag this way. For a game that big I'm sure they can work with the developer to ship a native version. But for internal testing of a headset it would make sense to use this version in advance of availability of a native port. The games that will ship this way will probably mostly be non-VR games that would never get ported otherwise. So you can play your Steam library full of non-VR x86 Windows PC games on a giant virtual screen in VR.
- dagmx 2y ago
  I think you’re perhaps over indexing on the one game in the list. The other games in the list have no VR mode at all. So they could run standalone in a flat screen view, but with fairly poor performance. Gorilla tag also has an ARM version already for Quest. So why would valve not just start from there? The Quest line of products use effectively the only SoC that Valve would have access to anyway for the XR space. Imho desktop and tethered playing are far more likely targets. I think Deckard might show up someday but it’s become a vessel for everyone’s hopes and dreams.

chithanh 2y ago

It seems pretty clear to me that the main target of this is ARM Chromebooks, at least for now. As these are the only products currently shipping in any relevant numbers where this makes sense.

saagarjha 2y ago
Mobile?
hsjdhdvsk 2y ago
Arm windows laptops?
- chithanh 2y ago
  You don't need Proton for that, and the article talks about Valve testing proton-arm64.
gpderetta 2y ago
An ARM based steam deck seems more likely.
- chithanh 2y ago
  But unlike ARM Chromebooks, an ARM Steam Deck does not exist today, and will not exist until at least November 2025 per Valve statements. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-09/new-steam-deck-with-oled-screen-more-storage-coming-from-valve https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-09/new-steam... (archived link w/o paywall: https://archive.md/VWvsW https://archive.md/VWvsW )
  - gpderetta 2y ago
    I think it is pretty clear that Valve plays the long game. Proton existed for years before SD was released.
    - 2y ago

jillesvangurp 2y ago

I don't think this is about the hardware necessarily. They probably make more money from the Steam store and there are some notable ARM based platforms where you currently can't use Steam and where they are not able to sell games. Macs would be a big juicy target, for example. If they can get emulation working well enough with proton on that, that's a huge market. Lots of people with disposable income on there that could be buying lots of games. And Apple is doing similar things as well so there might be some opportunity to tap into what they are doing.

modeless 2y ago
As much as it sounds like it would make sense, I haven't seen any hints that they are developing Proton for macOS. That seems like it would be evident from open source changes, if it was happening. I think Valve is reluctant to get any closer to Apple, or any large platform owner for that matter. They want to stay independent and own their own destiny. They even tried to get away from Microsoft with Steam Machines. It failed back then, but the Steam Deck is the continuation of that effort.
sangnoir 2y ago
iPhones and iPads too. Valve opening a Steam store on iOS devices is the stuff of Apple's nightmares.
- happymellon 2y ago
  Only in Europe. Please give us 30% of Steam. Tnx.
Novosell 2y ago
It isn't a huge market though. Mac has never been particularly big for gaming, they've always come in very low on the steam hardware survey. Now, post-ARM, it's beat by Linux even.
- FroshKiller 2y ago
  I don't think the Steam hardware survey is representative of the market size. Most people with Macs are accustomed to games that should run just fine on them never getting released, which means there often isn't any point to installing Steam on a Mac in the first place. Therefore they wouldn't be represented even though they are gamers, they spend money, and they have Macs. I don't have a PC for personal use, but I do have a lot of game consoles, an M1 MacBook Pro, and an M2 Mac mini. There are lots of games like Pizza Tower that look fun to me, do not have a Mac version, but do have a Switch version. So I wind up spending money on Switch games that would've gone to Steam if the publisher had bothered with a macOS release. While I do have Steam installed on my M1 and M2, I rarely launch it because I've only bought eight games off Steam in two years because of this dynamic, meaning I haven't even participated in the survey myself. My Steam account is over 20 years old and has a healthy library from when I was a PC gamer. I'd say my money's on the table, but my money's in Nintendo's wallet. But I'd really rather be buying macOS versions!

madeofpalk 2y ago

This does not seem clear to me. My initial guess would be ARM based Steam Deck (or similar handhelds). But generally, what is clear to me is that ARM is slowly becoming a lot more viable for general purpose computing. Apple's completely made the shift, and Microsoft seems to be persuing it for laptops at least finally. ARM seems like a great match for handhelds, if it wasn't for the compat issues.