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From Wikipedia: > [IPP] was intended to protect the public against criminals whose crimes were not serious enough to merit a normal life sentence but who were

From Wikipedia: > [IPP] was intended to protect the public against criminals whose crimes were not serious enough to merit a normal life sentence but who were regarded as too dangerous to be released when the term of their original sentence had expired. It is composed of a punitive "tariff" intended to be proportionate to the gravity of the crime committed, and an indeterminate period which commences after the expiry of the tariff and lasts until the Parole Board judges the prisoner no longer poses a risk to the public and is fit to be released. [1] That last bit is even worse than it sounds: the burden of proof is on the prisoner to prove that they're no longer a danger to society, instead of requiring the Parole Board to prove that they're still a danger. Between that burden and the rest of the Parole Board's workload, it's taking forever to get anyone released. IPP was eliminated in 2012 because it was unjust and overused, but politicians made the conscious decision to not retroactively undo it because of the bad PR it'd cause if some violent offender was released and killed someone. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprisonment_for_public_protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprisonment_for_public_protec...

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
[flagged]
- mulmen 2y ago
  What about all the people who don’t reoffend that you don’t notice? As a resident of a “coastal city” I’m happy we value liberty over safety.
  - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
    I would much rather be harsher on violent criminals in general. If you even attempted to murder someone once, especially a stranger, I have no reason to assume you are incapable of a second attempt. And sure, I’d be fine with giving people a first pass in some situations, but we’re talking about career criminals. Do you think it’s okay to let people with violent rap sheets 50+ charges long go free because you value their “liberty”?
    - freeopinion 2y ago
      I'm not sure what you consider to be violent or what you consider to be a crime. Do you think speeding through a school zone is violent or criminal? What about drunk driving? What about a fist fight? I am willing to bet that you routinely violate the law. Somehow in your culture that is acceptable. Maybe you ignore a speed limit. Maybe you fail to disclose some income. Maybe you pay a kid to mow your lawn in violation of Child Labor laws. Maybe you take a swing at somebody during a pickup game of basketball. In U.S. culture these are tolerated and even encouraged. If you arrested people for these things and sent them to jail do you think they would re-offend when they got out of jail? If you haven't changed the culture into which you return them, there is a high probability. Is there anything about prison that changes the culture outside prison in a positive way? I don't ask that in a "See how pointless prisons are?" kind of way. Mostly my attention there is on the environment outside prison.
      - consteval 2y ago
        > I'm not sure what you consider to be violent or what you consider to be a crime Yes, this right here is the key people are missing. This varies from person to person, from political affiliation to political affiliation. But it also varies within a person. Someone black is not going to be viewed in the same light as someone white. As much as we like to believe this isn't the case, it just is, and we have to account for that. The problem with IPP is that we start with the assumption the violent are violent and they must prove otherwise. When we begin at a baseline of disadvantage, the potential for corruption is strife. Racism is trivial and invisible in such a system.
        tourmalinetaco 2y ago
        I really don’t understand how either of you have any difficulty understanding what is and isn’t violent crimes. There are literal legal classifications of what is and isn’t violent. So do you consider getting stabbed “non-violent”, and is it racist to say that a black man who stabbed someone was violent? You’re so caught up in identity politics that you fail to apply any actual standards to the people you claim to respect.
- mu53 2y ago
  The data shows that violent crimes are lower today than they've been in decades. Ever recorded, technically in the US. Crime is enormously politicized. Whichever politician is in office can be attacked with any crimes that happened in their jurisdictions. Its easy to see it in alt-right propaganda bringing up horrific stories.... from years ago. As in, they had to go back years to find a story horrific enough of a story to resonate with people. I see this pattern common in European and American conservative news. Between the media's "If it bleeds, it leads". Private prisons ties to politicians. Companies benefiting from slave labor. Many people's personal preference for excessive punishment. The data supports one story, and more and more people feel another one is true.
  - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
    Around 40% of inmates in the US will reoffend, many finding themselves back in prison (and subsequently released) within the year. Violent crimes can be at a low and repeat violent criminals can still be a problem. Most crime in the US is done by a fraction of the population, and we are doing nothing to actually address rehabilitation. We simply let them go and watch as they hurt more people. You can try to hand wave this away as “alt-right propaganda” all you want, but the government’s statistics don’t lie.
    - defrost 2y ago
      > Around 40% of inmates in the US will reoffend, many finding themselves back in prison (and subsequently released) within the year. Why? Having served their time are they dumped without resources and the stigma of a criminal conviction with limited ability for employment and support? The US is outstanding extreme in the per capita imprisonment rate which speaks to some systemic issue, however to be fair the US is about middle of the pack for G20 recidivism rates after (say) four years. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivism-rates-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivis... ~ 40% seems commonplace.
    - underlipton 2y ago
      Reoffend how, specifically? Obligatory context: the monetary value of wage theft alone (not including other types of white-collar crime, like embezzlement, tax fraud, securities fraud, etc.) is greater than that of every type of "violent" theft or burglary. Combined. Priorities.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- AngryData 2y ago
  You got a source for that? Because ive heard it before but never seen any evidence for it and it screams political propaganda to me. The US has not been soft on criminals in a long long time, that is why it has near 25% of the total world prison population.
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    > The US has not been soft on criminals in a long long time You should read more about SF, Portland, Seattle, and LA (while under district attorney George Gascon). Being soft on crime is normal in some parts of the US, and it predictably leads to lots of crime. These soft on crime policies have come so far that my local retail store locks up detergent behind glass now, and this is common on the west coast at this point.
- nsonha 2y ago
  idk, don't you find jailing people for crimes they have not committed (but likely to I guess) a bit... insane?
selcuka 2y ago
> politicians made the conscious decision to not retroactively undo it because of the bad PR it'd cause if some violent offender was released and killed someone. So it's ok if a violent offender jailed after 2012 gets released and kills someone. Typical politican logic.
- duneisagoodbook 2y ago
  politicians are choosing instead to kill these prisoners via indeterminate detention
  - Hydenty 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - duneisagoodbook 2y ago
      I hope you reflect on why that is.
  - selcuka 2y ago
    To be clear, my comment was sarcastic and I'm not defending the indeterminate detention option. Just pointing out the hypocrisy.
- sweeter 2y ago
  Isn't it the opposite? They don't want to be blamed if something happens so they uphold a blatantly unjust ruling. To be clear, thats not how any of this works. You can't just imprison someone indefinitely because they "might" do something.
  - selcuka 2y ago
    > Isn't it the opposite? It is. My comment was a (failed) attempt at sarcasm. If the new ruling is thought to be more just, it should be retroactively applied.
mathieuh 2y ago
On the point that the prisoners have to prove that they’re no longer a danger: in some cases that means completing courses which are completely inaccessible to the prisoners due to cutbacks.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

[flagged]

mulmen 2y ago
What about all the people who don’t reoffend that you don’t notice? As a resident of a “coastal city” I’m happy we value liberty over safety.
- tourmalinetaco 2y ago
  I would much rather be harsher on violent criminals in general. If you even attempted to murder someone once, especially a stranger, I have no reason to assume you are incapable of a second attempt. And sure, I’d be fine with giving people a first pass in some situations, but we’re talking about career criminals. Do you think it’s okay to let people with violent rap sheets 50+ charges long go free because you value their “liberty”?
  - freeopinion 2y ago
    I'm not sure what you consider to be violent or what you consider to be a crime. Do you think speeding through a school zone is violent or criminal? What about drunk driving? What about a fist fight? I am willing to bet that you routinely violate the law. Somehow in your culture that is acceptable. Maybe you ignore a speed limit. Maybe you fail to disclose some income. Maybe you pay a kid to mow your lawn in violation of Child Labor laws. Maybe you take a swing at somebody during a pickup game of basketball. In U.S. culture these are tolerated and even encouraged. If you arrested people for these things and sent them to jail do you think they would re-offend when they got out of jail? If you haven't changed the culture into which you return them, there is a high probability. Is there anything about prison that changes the culture outside prison in a positive way? I don't ask that in a "See how pointless prisons are?" kind of way. Mostly my attention there is on the environment outside prison.
    - consteval 2y ago
      > I'm not sure what you consider to be violent or what you consider to be a crime Yes, this right here is the key people are missing. This varies from person to person, from political affiliation to political affiliation. But it also varies within a person. Someone black is not going to be viewed in the same light as someone white. As much as we like to believe this isn't the case, it just is, and we have to account for that. The problem with IPP is that we start with the assumption the violent are violent and they must prove otherwise. When we begin at a baseline of disadvantage, the potential for corruption is strife. Racism is trivial and invisible in such a system.
      - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
        I really don’t understand how either of you have any difficulty understanding what is and isn’t violent crimes. There are literal legal classifications of what is and isn’t violent. So do you consider getting stabbed “non-violent”, and is it racist to say that a black man who stabbed someone was violent? You’re so caught up in identity politics that you fail to apply any actual standards to the people you claim to respect.
mu53 2y ago
The data shows that violent crimes are lower today than they've been in decades. Ever recorded, technically in the US. Crime is enormously politicized. Whichever politician is in office can be attacked with any crimes that happened in their jurisdictions. Its easy to see it in alt-right propaganda bringing up horrific stories.... from years ago. As in, they had to go back years to find a story horrific enough of a story to resonate with people. I see this pattern common in European and American conservative news. Between the media's "If it bleeds, it leads". Private prisons ties to politicians. Companies benefiting from slave labor. Many people's personal preference for excessive punishment. The data supports one story, and more and more people feel another one is true.
- tourmalinetaco 2y ago
  Around 40% of inmates in the US will reoffend, many finding themselves back in prison (and subsequently released) within the year. Violent crimes can be at a low and repeat violent criminals can still be a problem. Most crime in the US is done by a fraction of the population, and we are doing nothing to actually address rehabilitation. We simply let them go and watch as they hurt more people. You can try to hand wave this away as “alt-right propaganda” all you want, but the government’s statistics don’t lie.
  - defrost 2y ago
    > Around 40% of inmates in the US will reoffend, many finding themselves back in prison (and subsequently released) within the year. Why? Having served their time are they dumped without resources and the stigma of a criminal conviction with limited ability for employment and support? The US is outstanding extreme in the per capita imprisonment rate which speaks to some systemic issue, however to be fair the US is about middle of the pack for G20 recidivism rates after (say) four years. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivism-rates-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivis... ~ 40% seems commonplace.
  - underlipton 2y ago
    Reoffend how, specifically? Obligatory context: the monetary value of wage theft alone (not including other types of white-collar crime, like embezzlement, tax fraud, securities fraud, etc.) is greater than that of every type of "violent" theft or burglary. Combined. Priorities.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
AngryData 2y ago
You got a source for that? Because ive heard it before but never seen any evidence for it and it screams political propaganda to me. The US has not been soft on criminals in a long long time, that is why it has near 25% of the total world prison population.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  > The US has not been soft on criminals in a long long time You should read more about SF, Portland, Seattle, and LA (while under district attorney George Gascon). Being soft on crime is normal in some parts of the US, and it predictably leads to lots of crime. These soft on crime policies have come so far that my local retail store locks up detergent behind glass now, and this is common on the west coast at this point.
nsonha 2y ago
idk, don't you find jailing people for crimes they have not committed (but likely to I guess) a bit... insane?

selcuka 2y ago

> politicians made the conscious decision to not retroactively undo it because of the bad PR it'd cause if some violent offender was released and killed someone. So it's ok if a violent offender jailed after 2012 gets released and kills someone. Typical politican logic.

duneisagoodbook 2y ago
politicians are choosing instead to kill these prisoners via indeterminate detention
- Hydenty 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - duneisagoodbook 2y ago
    I hope you reflect on why that is.
- selcuka 2y ago
  To be clear, my comment was sarcastic and I'm not defending the indeterminate detention option. Just pointing out the hypocrisy.
sweeter 2y ago
Isn't it the opposite? They don't want to be blamed if something happens so they uphold a blatantly unjust ruling. To be clear, thats not how any of this works. You can't just imprison someone indefinitely because they "might" do something.
- selcuka 2y ago
  > Isn't it the opposite? It is. My comment was a (failed) attempt at sarcasm. If the new ruling is thought to be more just, it should be retroactively applied.

mathieuh 2y ago

On the point that the prisoners have to prove that they’re no longer a danger: in some cases that means completing courses which are completely inaccessible to the prisoners due to cutbacks.