4 ms·

Developing Firefox costs $200M per year. You want to replace that with a community of volunteers?

by wmf 2y ago

drpossum 2y ago
> Developing Firefox costs $200M per year. Citation please.
- mrighele 2y ago
  The Wikipedia page [1] links to an annual report from 2022 [2] where it is stated (page 6) that the expenses for 2022 for "Software development" were about 220 Million Dollars [X], though I guess that the entry includes software other than just Firefox and there is no breakdown. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation [2] https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2022/mozilla-fdn-2022-fs-final-0908.pdf https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2022/mozilla-fdn-202... [X] Plus 58 Million Dollars for "Branding and marketing" and 108 Million Dollars for "General and administrative" ... ouch !
  - closewith 2y ago
    The annual report very deliberately didn't break out spending on Firefox.
closewith 2y ago
I would like you to try to support this with evidence from their annual reports.
Timshel 2y ago
For those doubting the corp is 750 peoples (2020). And the Software dev expenses are listed at around $200 millions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation#Finances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation#Finances
- zihotki 2y ago
  750 people is a total number. Number of people involved into developing Firefox is way less. $200 millions are the aggregated expenses of ALL software 'development' efforts of Mozilla Corporation like VPN, Relay, Pocket, mozilla.social, etc. And there are a lot of interesting expenses which are billed as development. According to Lunduke (1) who dived into the details a bit, there are many very questionnable expenses which are not related to Firefox development. So the questions is still very open, how much does Firefox development actually costs? Developing Thunderbird costed around $2 millions in 2021 (2). 1 - https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4387539/firefox-money-investigating-the-bizarre-finances-of-mozilla https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4387539/firefox-money-invest... 2 - https://blog.thunderbird.net/2023/05/thunderbird-is-thriving-our-2022-financial-report/ https://blog.thunderbird.net/2023/05/thunderbird-is-thriving...
  - mempko 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Karunamon 2y ago
      Thats all well and good, but you said nothing of substance about the link. The fact you dislike his political stances tells us nothing.
      - SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
        Tells me something about the substance the argument and character actually.
      - Spivak 2y ago
        Okay, I read the article. He's a right-wing nutjob with a persecution fetish ranting about a few 5 and 6 figure expenses of a company that spends 9 figures on software deployment and has an axe to grind about the values of the organizations behind those expenses. Wow the self-righteous literally-an-activist-group hippies of the browser world are self-righteous about other causes? How could we have ever predicted this.
RobotToaster 2y ago
$190M of which is the CEO's salary. (an exaggeration, but it wouldn't surprise me if a big portion of that is c suite salaries)
zihotki 2y ago
Or does it? https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4387539/firefox-money-investigating-the-bizarre-finances-of-mozilla https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4387539/firefox-money-invest... Only a fraction of Mozilla luxurious spending goes for Firefox development.
- nine_k 2y ago
  OK, let's assume that the Mozilla engineering team is 500 people. I could not find reliable numbers, but this looks like the right ballpark. Let's assume that an engineer, on average, costs $250k/year; the cost for employer is much higher than just the salary. This is already $125M. There are also people other than engineers needed to run an org. Build infra also costs something. Let's assume that Firefox could keep being developed, as the sole product, for $200M / year. Then let's assume that a Firefox user would be willing to pay, on average, $5 / mo, or $60 / year, to support the project. More in richer countries, less in less well-off. This would mean that about 3.4 million of paying users would suffice. Worldwide, Firefox has 362 million users [1]. Only 1% of users would have to pay an equivalent of a hamburger a month to sustain Firefox. If 5% paid, it would be a price of a cup of plain coffee per month. Now we need just one teeny tiny thing: somebody capable of organizing this. [1]: https://www.enterpriseappstoday.com/stats/firefox-statistics.html https://www.enterpriseappstoday.com/stats/firefox-statistics...
  - elric 2y ago
    > we need just one teeny tiny thing: somebody capable of organizing this That and an efficient way of making those payments. Can we please get an online payment method that's as simple as cash already?
    - wmf 2y ago
      If recent history is any guide, that would result in many people immediately losing everything in scams and hacks. Anyway, $5/month isn't a micropayment and could easily be done through existing app stores.
elric 2y ago
Stopping development of user-hostile features could reduce the cost somewhat. Snark aside, it's crazy how it's basically become impossible to build and maintain a browser unless you're a megacorp or a billionaire.

Developing Firefox costs $200M per year. You want to replace that with a community of volunteers?

by wmf 2y ago

Developing Firefox costs $200M per year. You want to replace that with a community of volunteers?

drpossum 2y ago

> Developing Firefox costs $200M per year. Citation please.

mrighele 2y ago
The Wikipedia page [1] links to an annual report from 2022 [2] where it is stated (page 6) that the expenses for 2022 for "Software development" were about 220 Million Dollars [X], though I guess that the entry includes software other than just Firefox and there is no breakdown. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation [2] https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2022/mozilla-fdn-2022-fs-final-0908.pdf https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2022/mozilla-fdn-202... [X] Plus 58 Million Dollars for "Branding and marketing" and 108 Million Dollars for "General and administrative" ... ouch !
- closewith 2y ago
  The annual report very deliberately didn't break out spending on Firefox.

closewith 2y ago

I would like you to try to support this with evidence from their annual reports.

Timshel 2y ago

For those doubting the corp is 750 peoples (2020). And the Software dev expenses are listed at around $200 millions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation#Finances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation#Finances

zihotki 2y ago
750 people is a total number. Number of people involved into developing Firefox is way less. $200 millions are the aggregated expenses of ALL software 'development' efforts of Mozilla Corporation like VPN, Relay, Pocket, mozilla.social, etc. And there are a lot of interesting expenses which are billed as development. According to Lunduke (1) who dived into the details a bit, there are many very questionnable expenses which are not related to Firefox development. So the questions is still very open, how much does Firefox development actually costs? Developing Thunderbird costed around $2 millions in 2021 (2). 1 - https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4387539/firefox-money-investigating-the-bizarre-finances-of-mozilla https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4387539/firefox-money-invest... 2 - https://blog.thunderbird.net/2023/05/thunderbird-is-thriving-our-2022-financial-report/ https://blog.thunderbird.net/2023/05/thunderbird-is-thriving...
- mempko 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Karunamon 2y ago
    Thats all well and good, but you said nothing of substance about the link. The fact you dislike his political stances tells us nothing.
    - SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
      Tells me something about the substance the argument and character actually.
    - Spivak 2y ago
      Okay, I read the article. He's a right-wing nutjob with a persecution fetish ranting about a few 5 and 6 figure expenses of a company that spends 9 figures on software deployment and has an axe to grind about the values of the organizations behind those expenses. Wow the self-righteous literally-an-activist-group hippies of the browser world are self-righteous about other causes? How could we have ever predicted this.

RobotToaster 2y ago

$190M of which is the CEO's salary. (an exaggeration, but it wouldn't surprise me if a big portion of that is c suite salaries)

zihotki 2y ago

Or does it? https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4387539/firefox-money-investigating-the-bizarre-finances-of-mozilla https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4387539/firefox-money-invest... Only a fraction of Mozilla luxurious spending goes for Firefox development.

nine_k 2y ago
OK, let's assume that the Mozilla engineering team is 500 people. I could not find reliable numbers, but this looks like the right ballpark. Let's assume that an engineer, on average, costs $250k/year; the cost for employer is much higher than just the salary. This is already $125M. There are also people other than engineers needed to run an org. Build infra also costs something. Let's assume that Firefox could keep being developed, as the sole product, for $200M / year. Then let's assume that a Firefox user would be willing to pay, on average, $5 / mo, or $60 / year, to support the project. More in richer countries, less in less well-off. This would mean that about 3.4 million of paying users would suffice. Worldwide, Firefox has 362 million users [1]. Only 1% of users would have to pay an equivalent of a hamburger a month to sustain Firefox. If 5% paid, it would be a price of a cup of plain coffee per month. Now we need just one teeny tiny thing: somebody capable of organizing this. [1]: https://www.enterpriseappstoday.com/stats/firefox-statistics.html https://www.enterpriseappstoday.com/stats/firefox-statistics...
- elric 2y ago
  > we need just one teeny tiny thing: somebody capable of organizing this That and an efficient way of making those payments. Can we please get an online payment method that's as simple as cash already?
  - wmf 2y ago
    If recent history is any guide, that would result in many people immediately losing everything in scams and hacks. Anyway, $5/month isn't a micropayment and could easily be done through existing app stores.

elric 2y ago

Stopping development of user-hostile features could reduce the cost somewhat. Snark aside, it's crazy how it's basically become impossible to build and maintain a browser unless you're a megacorp or a billionaire.