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> The cost obviously is a massive hurdle for most families probably, and so is over night parking for many. Cargo bikes have an absurdly and inexplicably high

> The cost obviously is a massive hurdle for most families probably, and so is over night parking for many. Cargo bikes have an absurdly and inexplicably high cost. It's unbelievable how they can easily cost over $5k. That's nearly half a brand new car like a Dacia Sandero. The economy is barely there with all this price gouging.

unixhero 2y ago
It doesn't have to be economic if you want it.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> all this price gouging Price gouging is short term and localised. If you truly think you’ve identified a mispriced product, this is HN. You’re capable of more than loosely complaining about it.
- chipdart 2y ago
  > Price gouging is short term and localised. If you truly think you’ve identified a mispriced product, this is HN. You’re capable of more than loosely complaining about it. I don't understand what point you tried to make. Whenever I see price gouging, my reaction is not to "disrupt markets" or put together elevator pitches. I move on with my life because I have better things to do with my life than planning to startup a company whenever I'm baffled by something. In this case, if I see companies price gouging cargo bikes, I solve all my problems by not buying one. Easy. No elevator pitch required. But that doesn't mean that people aren't being fleeced by these cargo bike companies.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > don't understand what point you tried to make. Whenever I see price gouging You’re describing a product that’s too expensive for you. Just because something is expensive doesn’t prove price gouging. You may also be confusing profiteering in general with price gouging. Even then, you’re made no argument showing the problem is excess margins. Unless you’re looked into the BOM, labour, inventory and certification costs, “this feels expensive” isn’t insightful. > I have better things to do with my life than planning to startup a company whenever I'm baffled by something Then it’s not price gouging or profiteering. It’s someone providing a niche product conveniently. (I personally cannot see how you can make a high-power, decently-ranged, decent-quality electric bike in low volumes with fairly-paid labor and safe storage of e.g. the large batteries without a cost floor of a few thousand Euro.)
- switchbak 2y ago
  I see price gouging in the price of cheese at my local grocer. You won't see me buying cows and fencing to disrupt their market, I have better things to do.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > see price gouging in the price of cheese at my local grocer You probably don’t. You’re seeing some combination of prices you don’t like and/or profiteering.
cranekam 2y ago
I imagine economies of scale are much greater with cars than cargo bikes. If it was possible to charge, say, 50% less for a cargo bike I’m sure someone would be, and they’d be taking the entire market with them.
- loeg 2y ago
  Yeah, scale is the problem. The market is tiny compared to cars and even motorcycles. Brands like RAD and Lectric do compete on price and as a result they sell higher volumes than the nicer expensive R&Ms or Urban Arrows or whatever.
- joshlemer 2y ago
  Not to mention, every government tripping over themselves to hand out all kinds of multi billion dollar subsidies to any car manufacturer willing to set up shop in their jurisdiction. And a slew of implicit subsidies to car manufacturing, use, storage/parking, legal frameworks ("if you want to murder someone and get away with it, do it with a car"), etc.
the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
My suspicion is that prices would drop a bit there was more competition on the market. That said: they are not really “mass” manufactured so I do understand the cost. One could probably learn a thing or two from car manufacturing to crank them out at a higher volume and lower cost. Presumably the investment cost into automation however doesn’t pay off.
avianlyric 2y ago
Comparing a cargo bike to a new car only makes sense if that new car requires no fuel, no significant maintenance, no tax, and no insurance. A $5k cargo bike it’s almost certainly a e-bike, additional cargo bikes haven’t really hit the manufacturing scale needed for automation to make sense. So there’s a significant amount of labour involved in effectively hand building, and hand welding these bikes. Something that simply isn’t true for cars. I also don’t think there is much price gouging happening with cargo bikes. Unlike cars, the barrier to entry for new manufacturers is practically zero, so if it was easy to build new cargo bikes cheaper, someone would do it. But even if there was significant price gouging involved. Economically, a $5k cargo bike will have a total cost of ownership orders of magnitude lower than a car, regardless of cars price.
- supertrope 2y ago
  Consumers are very sensitive to upfront cost. There's a vicious cycle of automobile orientated development creating demand for cars. Cars are considered essential transportation tools. Bikes are considered nice to have recreational, fitness, or kids' toys. So people aren't willing to spend thousands on a bike unless it can replace a car.
  - Muromec 2y ago
    Most people I see using those 5k cargo bikes also have a car.
  - avianlyric 2y ago
    You’re making some very big assumptions about “consumers” here. Unlike the U.S. most European cities have decent public transport, and a car isn’t seen as essential. I live near central London, can easily afford a car, have a private location to park a car etc etc. But I don’t own a car, or consider a car essential, driving in London is simply the slowest, most expensive and stressful form of transport. I do however consider my bike an essential transport tool, alongside my Oyster card. If we need a car, then we just rent one (and have it dropped off near our home). So we rent a car when going on trips out of London, or needing to move items that we can’t using our bikes. > So people aren't willing to spend thousands on a bike unless it can replace a car. That’s a very large assumption, you also make it sound like a bike can’t replace a car. Which simply isn’t true, for many European cities the opposite is true, a car can’t replace a bike.
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
Maintenance on bicycles is also insane. An "oil change" (clean and lube the chain) every 300 km or so. Even if you consider that bicycles don't travel as fast and far as cars, that's quite an annoyance to deal with about every 20 or so operating hours. If you were to actually pay a shop to do the maintenance, I suspect a bicycle would be more expensive per km than a car.
- loloquwowndueo 2y ago
  It takes 5 minutes. Nowhere near as involved as with a car oil change. And it’s simple enough that unless you’re basically inoperant as a being, you don’t need to pay a shop to do it.
- soared 2y ago
  Lubing and cleaning a chain takes literally 30 seconds though and the materials cost like fifteen cents.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
    How do you clean a chain in 30 seconds?!?
    - mb7733 2y ago
      Hold a rag on the chain and spin the cranks?
    - RugnirViking 2y ago
      turn bike upside down, spin chain with pedals using hand, while applying brush and wd40
- loeg 2y ago
  > If you were to actually pay a shop to do the maintenance, I suspect a bicycle would be more expensive per km than a car. Not even close. As other commenters have noted, lubing a chain is not especially challenging or expensive.
- 2y ago
dahart 2y ago
You might have missed the exchange rate a little. The cheapest Dacia Sandero is over $18k USD, more than 3x the $5k idea. But you can get very nice e-cargo-bikes for $2-3k, and you’re comparing one of the cheapest cars anywhere to the fanciest electric cargo bikes available, which is almost like comparing a $100 Walmart Huffy with a basket to a Porsche. Look for reasonably priced cargo bikes, and you can easily find them.

unixhero 2y ago

It doesn't have to be economic if you want it.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> all this price gouging Price gouging is short term and localised. If you truly think you’ve identified a mispriced product, this is HN. You’re capable of more than loosely complaining about it.

chipdart 2y ago
> Price gouging is short term and localised. If you truly think you’ve identified a mispriced product, this is HN. You’re capable of more than loosely complaining about it. I don't understand what point you tried to make. Whenever I see price gouging, my reaction is not to "disrupt markets" or put together elevator pitches. I move on with my life because I have better things to do with my life than planning to startup a company whenever I'm baffled by something. In this case, if I see companies price gouging cargo bikes, I solve all my problems by not buying one. Easy. No elevator pitch required. But that doesn't mean that people aren't being fleeced by these cargo bike companies.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > don't understand what point you tried to make. Whenever I see price gouging You’re describing a product that’s too expensive for you. Just because something is expensive doesn’t prove price gouging. You may also be confusing profiteering in general with price gouging. Even then, you’re made no argument showing the problem is excess margins. Unless you’re looked into the BOM, labour, inventory and certification costs, “this feels expensive” isn’t insightful. > I have better things to do with my life than planning to startup a company whenever I'm baffled by something Then it’s not price gouging or profiteering. It’s someone providing a niche product conveniently. (I personally cannot see how you can make a high-power, decently-ranged, decent-quality electric bike in low volumes with fairly-paid labor and safe storage of e.g. the large batteries without a cost floor of a few thousand Euro.)
switchbak 2y ago
I see price gouging in the price of cheese at my local grocer. You won't see me buying cows and fencing to disrupt their market, I have better things to do.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > see price gouging in the price of cheese at my local grocer You probably don’t. You’re seeing some combination of prices you don’t like and/or profiteering.

cranekam 2y ago

I imagine economies of scale are much greater with cars than cargo bikes. If it was possible to charge, say, 50% less for a cargo bike I’m sure someone would be, and they’d be taking the entire market with them.

loeg 2y ago
Yeah, scale is the problem. The market is tiny compared to cars and even motorcycles. Brands like RAD and Lectric do compete on price and as a result they sell higher volumes than the nicer expensive R&Ms or Urban Arrows or whatever.
joshlemer 2y ago
Not to mention, every government tripping over themselves to hand out all kinds of multi billion dollar subsidies to any car manufacturer willing to set up shop in their jurisdiction. And a slew of implicit subsidies to car manufacturing, use, storage/parking, legal frameworks ("if you want to murder someone and get away with it, do it with a car"), etc.

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago

My suspicion is that prices would drop a bit there was more competition on the market. That said: they are not really “mass” manufactured so I do understand the cost. One could probably learn a thing or two from car manufacturing to crank them out at a higher volume and lower cost. Presumably the investment cost into automation however doesn’t pay off.

avianlyric 2y ago

Comparing a cargo bike to a new car only makes sense if that new car requires no fuel, no significant maintenance, no tax, and no insurance. A $5k cargo bike it’s almost certainly a e-bike, additional cargo bikes haven’t really hit the manufacturing scale needed for automation to make sense. So there’s a significant amount of labour involved in effectively hand building, and hand welding these bikes. Something that simply isn’t true for cars. I also don’t think there is much price gouging happening with cargo bikes. Unlike cars, the barrier to entry for new manufacturers is practically zero, so if it was easy to build new cargo bikes cheaper, someone would do it. But even if there was significant price gouging involved. Economically, a $5k cargo bike will have a total cost of ownership orders of magnitude lower than a car, regardless of cars price.

supertrope 2y ago
Consumers are very sensitive to upfront cost. There's a vicious cycle of automobile orientated development creating demand for cars. Cars are considered essential transportation tools. Bikes are considered nice to have recreational, fitness, or kids' toys. So people aren't willing to spend thousands on a bike unless it can replace a car.
- Muromec 2y ago
  Most people I see using those 5k cargo bikes also have a car.
- avianlyric 2y ago
  You’re making some very big assumptions about “consumers” here. Unlike the U.S. most European cities have decent public transport, and a car isn’t seen as essential. I live near central London, can easily afford a car, have a private location to park a car etc etc. But I don’t own a car, or consider a car essential, driving in London is simply the slowest, most expensive and stressful form of transport. I do however consider my bike an essential transport tool, alongside my Oyster card. If we need a car, then we just rent one (and have it dropped off near our home). So we rent a car when going on trips out of London, or needing to move items that we can’t using our bikes. > So people aren't willing to spend thousands on a bike unless it can replace a car. That’s a very large assumption, you also make it sound like a bike can’t replace a car. Which simply isn’t true, for many European cities the opposite is true, a car can’t replace a bike.

tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago

Maintenance on bicycles is also insane. An "oil change" (clean and lube the chain) every 300 km or so. Even if you consider that bicycles don't travel as fast and far as cars, that's quite an annoyance to deal with about every 20 or so operating hours. If you were to actually pay a shop to do the maintenance, I suspect a bicycle would be more expensive per km than a car.

loloquwowndueo 2y ago
It takes 5 minutes. Nowhere near as involved as with a car oil change. And it’s simple enough that unless you’re basically inoperant as a being, you don’t need to pay a shop to do it.
soared 2y ago
Lubing and cleaning a chain takes literally 30 seconds though and the materials cost like fifteen cents.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
  How do you clean a chain in 30 seconds?!?
  - mb7733 2y ago
    Hold a rag on the chain and spin the cranks?
  - RugnirViking 2y ago
    turn bike upside down, spin chain with pedals using hand, while applying brush and wd40
loeg 2y ago
> If you were to actually pay a shop to do the maintenance, I suspect a bicycle would be more expensive per km than a car. Not even close. As other commenters have noted, lubing a chain is not especially challenging or expensive.
2y ago

dahart 2y ago

You might have missed the exchange rate a little. The cheapest Dacia Sandero is over $18k USD, more than 3x the $5k idea. But you can get very nice e-cargo-bikes for $2-3k, and you’re comparing one of the cheapest cars anywhere to the fanciest electric cargo bikes available, which is almost like comparing a $100 Walmart Huffy with a basket to a Porsche. Look for reasonably priced cargo bikes, and you can easily find them.