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Dont these things have high labor per kilogram-kilometer costs? How would they ever be competitive? What am I missing? Edit: > Another study in Brussels looki

Dont these things have high labor per kilogram-kilometer costs? How would they ever be competitive? What am I missing? Edit: > Another study in Brussels looking at the operational advantages of cargo bikes over vans found that when you factor in insurance, maintenance, depreciation, and energy costs, vans have five to 10 times higher expenses per parcel. I'm skeptical. I would imagine that the driver cost is the largest driver.

janwas 2y ago
In European inner cities, it can be faster to get around on bikes.
docdeek 2y ago
This seems to be the report mentioned: https://www.larryvsharry.com/media/wysiwyg/cms_pages/Stories/Last_Mile_Delivery/Data-driven_Evaluation_of_Cargo_Bike_Delivery_Performance_in_Brussels.pdf https://www.larryvsharry.com/media/wysiwyg/cms_pages/Stories...
- abyssin 2y ago
  Larry vs Harry is the producer of Bullitt bikes. They're cool, but it's fair to say they're probably biased.
abyssin 2y ago
I'm also skeptical. I worked for a delivery company using cargo bikes. These things were needing repairs all the time. Employees were passionate about bicycles and accepting a very low wage. The bikes themselves are expensive. In specific situations they make sense because they're narrow and quiet, but I don't believe they're cheap to operate.
Vinnl 2y ago
For last-mile deliveries in dense cities with good infrastructure, cars have to make detours and spend time stuck in traffic, I imagine. Plus, you don't need a driver's licence for a cargo bike, so you can also hire younger (cheaper) delivery drivers, I guess.
- Muromec 2y ago
  This, plus no emission zone in the center.
patall 2y ago
> I would imagine that the driver cost is the largest driver. In addition to all the other things: Any immigrant can ride a cargo bike. But in Europe, getting a drivers license is quite expensive in many countries. So technically, the van drivers are higher skilled.
avianlyric 2y ago
Depends on your city. Here in London the average driving speed is around 12mph, easily beaten by a bike any day of the week. Further the bike routes tend to be much more direct than vehicle routes. No getting trapped in horrible one way systems, the ability to travel directly though low traffic neighbourhoods, because bike are allowed through model filters. Honestly it’s not clear to me how van or car based last-mile delivery is viable in most parts of London.
Muromec 2y ago
>Dont these things have high labor per kilogram-kilometer costs? How would they ever be competitive? What am I missing? Compared to a fume-spitting van, yes they can be more expensive to operate. Compared to a fancy e-van for which supply is limited, maybe not. You may be missing the local government not liking fume-spitting vans in the inner center.
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
In a car-hostile/bike-friendly city, they're going to be able to move much faster than a car, so the only downside is that you need to plan shorter routes/return to the base more often. Which probably isn't as big of a drag in a compact city as you'd think. A cargo bike with a 90x60x60cm box can fit 36 packages assuming a 15x20x30 size (weight will not be the limiting factor for the typical "one piece of electronics and some air" packages). 36 stops with 5 minutes per stop (travel + stopping and delivering the package) is 3 hours.
garrettgrimsley 2y ago
You're likely correct about the labor per kilogram-kilometer cost, and this e-bike solution is only competitive due to constraints applied by the government. This does ignore the negative externalities that result from the use of larger parcel delivery vehicles. >a fleet of electric cargo bikes in Norwich to deliver thousands of packages per week. Reading the article, this quote in particular stuck out to me because it is not uncommon for a single package car driver to deliver thousands of packages a week. This comes from my experience as a UPS Package Car Driver in Raleigh, North Carolina, which has a population density comparable to that of Norwich.
rickydroll 2y ago
> I'm skeptical. I would imagine that the driver cost is the largest driver. I'm skeptical as well. I expect that cargo bike operators will physically age out from banged-up bodies at roughly the same age as construction/trades workers. I think it will be hard to attract people because the corps won't pay a living wage, and it will be hard to keep people after their first few bad weather events.

janwas 2y ago

In European inner cities, it can be faster to get around on bikes.

docdeek 2y ago

This seems to be the report mentioned: https://www.larryvsharry.com/media/wysiwyg/cms_pages/Stories/Last_Mile_Delivery/Data-driven_Evaluation_of_Cargo_Bike_Delivery_Performance_in_Brussels.pdf https://www.larryvsharry.com/media/wysiwyg/cms_pages/Stories...

abyssin 2y ago
Larry vs Harry is the producer of Bullitt bikes. They're cool, but it's fair to say they're probably biased.

abyssin 2y ago

I'm also skeptical. I worked for a delivery company using cargo bikes. These things were needing repairs all the time. Employees were passionate about bicycles and accepting a very low wage. The bikes themselves are expensive. In specific situations they make sense because they're narrow and quiet, but I don't believe they're cheap to operate.

Vinnl 2y ago

For last-mile deliveries in dense cities with good infrastructure, cars have to make detours and spend time stuck in traffic, I imagine. Plus, you don't need a driver's licence for a cargo bike, so you can also hire younger (cheaper) delivery drivers, I guess.

Muromec 2y ago
This, plus no emission zone in the center.

patall 2y ago

> I would imagine that the driver cost is the largest driver. In addition to all the other things: Any immigrant can ride a cargo bike. But in Europe, getting a drivers license is quite expensive in many countries. So technically, the van drivers are higher skilled.

avianlyric 2y ago

Depends on your city. Here in London the average driving speed is around 12mph, easily beaten by a bike any day of the week. Further the bike routes tend to be much more direct than vehicle routes. No getting trapped in horrible one way systems, the ability to travel directly though low traffic neighbourhoods, because bike are allowed through model filters. Honestly it’s not clear to me how van or car based last-mile delivery is viable in most parts of London.

Muromec 2y ago

>Dont these things have high labor per kilogram-kilometer costs? How would they ever be competitive? What am I missing? Compared to a fume-spitting van, yes they can be more expensive to operate. Compared to a fancy e-van for which supply is limited, maybe not. You may be missing the local government not liking fume-spitting vans in the inner center.

tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago

In a car-hostile/bike-friendly city, they're going to be able to move much faster than a car, so the only downside is that you need to plan shorter routes/return to the base more often. Which probably isn't as big of a drag in a compact city as you'd think. A cargo bike with a 90x60x60cm box can fit 36 packages assuming a 15x20x30 size (weight will not be the limiting factor for the typical "one piece of electronics and some air" packages). 36 stops with 5 minutes per stop (travel + stopping and delivering the package) is 3 hours.

garrettgrimsley 2y ago

You're likely correct about the labor per kilogram-kilometer cost, and this e-bike solution is only competitive due to constraints applied by the government. This does ignore the negative externalities that result from the use of larger parcel delivery vehicles. >a fleet of electric cargo bikes in Norwich to deliver thousands of packages per week. Reading the article, this quote in particular stuck out to me because it is not uncommon for a single package car driver to deliver thousands of packages a week. This comes from my experience as a UPS Package Car Driver in Raleigh, North Carolina, which has a population density comparable to that of Norwich.

rickydroll 2y ago

> I'm skeptical. I would imagine that the driver cost is the largest driver. I'm skeptical as well. I expect that cargo bike operators will physically age out from banged-up bodies at roughly the same age as construction/trades workers. I think it will be hard to attract people because the corps won't pay a living wage, and it will be hard to keep people after their first few bad weather events.