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tangential: the modern human genome shows remnants of Neanderthal genes indicating that there was some mixing. Do any of these Neanderthal genomes show any simi

tangential: the modern human genome shows remnants of Neanderthal genes indicating that there was some mixing. Do any of these Neanderthal genomes show any similar mixing in the other direction?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
lapcat 2y ago
According to the book "The Naked Neanderthal" by the paper's lead author, no. This suggests that humans socially dominated Neanderthals when they came into contact. The evidence does show that humans were vastly superior at making weapons.
- masklinn 2y ago
  That book is definitely incorrect given we know the neanderthal "y" chromosome disappeared some 60 thousand years before neanderthals did, replaced by H. sapiens sapiens's. H. sapiens mtDNA was also found in "recent" neanderthal remains.
  - biorach 2y ago
    Source?
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      Related: https://www.science.org/content/article/neandertals-and-modern-humans-started-mating-early https://www.science.org/content/article/neandertals-and-mode...
      - biorach 2y ago
        That doesn't really cover it
        dragonwriter 2y ago
        It’s almost like that should be described as “related” instead of simply presented as the source of the upthread claim. Oh, wait, it was...
        biorach 2y ago
        Bit useless tho.
  - lapcat 2y ago
    > That book is definitely incorrect That's a rather bold claim about one of the world's foremost paleoanthropologists. "When you are searching for ancient DNA [from 40,000 to 45,000 years ago] … all these early sapiens have recent Neanderthal DNA, and that's why we have [Neanderthal DNA] today. But when you reach and you try to extract DNA from the last Neanderthals, contemporaries of these early sapiens — let's say between 40,000 and 50,000 years ago — there's not a single Neanderthal with sapiens DNA." https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/simply-did-not-work-mating-between-neanderthals-and-modern-humans-may-have-been-a-product-of-failed-alliances-says-archaeologist-ludovic-slimak https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/simply-did-not-work-...
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  > This suggests that humans socially dominated Neanderthals when they came into contact. Why? Is it because it is assumed that the dominant specie would steal the women (who would spread these traces in the dominant specie)? Isn't it possible that the dominant specie would also just rape, but not steal the women? (which would presumably cause the opposite genetic "flow")
  - jaredhallen 2y ago
    I gave this an upvote, because it seems like a plausible scenario and I had the same question. I have to say though, it feels a little uncomfortable upvoting a comment about rape.
- Keysh 2y ago
  Harris et al. 2023, “Diverse African genomes reveal selection on ancient modern human introgressions in Neanderthals” https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960982223013155 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09609... “… most Neanderthal homologous regions in sub-Saharan African populations originate from migration of AMH [anatomically modern human] populations from Africa to Eurasia ∼250 kya, and subsequent admixture with Neanderthals, resulting in ∼6% AMH ancestry in Neanderthals. These results indicate that there have been multiple migration events of AMHs out of Africa and that Neanderthal and AMH gene flow has been bi-directional.” This is, admittedly, research published after Slimak’s book came out, and referring to an earlier time period.
  - lapcat 2y ago
    Yes, I think his research focuses on a more recent period, and one of the main points of the book is to refute theories about why Neanderthals became extinct, so the 250kya period wouldn't be directly relevant to that. It's interesting that according to https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/humans-and-neanderthals-mated-250000-years-ago-much-earlier-than-thought https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/humans-and-neanderth... "This group of humans died out".

tangential: the modern human genome shows remnants of Neanderthal genes indicating that there was some mixing. Do any of these Neanderthal genomes show any similar mixing in the other direction?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

lapcat 2y ago

According to the book "The Naked Neanderthal" by the paper's lead author, no. This suggests that humans socially dominated Neanderthals when they came into contact. The evidence does show that humans were vastly superior at making weapons.

masklinn 2y ago
That book is definitely incorrect given we know the neanderthal "y" chromosome disappeared some 60 thousand years before neanderthals did, replaced by H. sapiens sapiens's. H. sapiens mtDNA was also found in "recent" neanderthal remains.
- biorach 2y ago
  Source?
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    Related: https://www.science.org/content/article/neandertals-and-modern-humans-started-mating-early https://www.science.org/content/article/neandertals-and-mode...
    - biorach 2y ago
      That doesn't really cover it
      - dragonwriter 2y ago
        It’s almost like that should be described as “related” instead of simply presented as the source of the upthread claim. Oh, wait, it was...
        biorach 2y ago
        Bit useless tho.
- lapcat 2y ago
  > That book is definitely incorrect That's a rather bold claim about one of the world's foremost paleoanthropologists. "When you are searching for ancient DNA [from 40,000 to 45,000 years ago] … all these early sapiens have recent Neanderthal DNA, and that's why we have [Neanderthal DNA] today. But when you reach and you try to extract DNA from the last Neanderthals, contemporaries of these early sapiens — let's say between 40,000 and 50,000 years ago — there's not a single Neanderthal with sapiens DNA." https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/simply-did-not-work-mating-between-neanderthals-and-modern-humans-may-have-been-a-product-of-failed-alliances-says-archaeologist-ludovic-slimak https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/simply-did-not-work-...
The_Colonel 2y ago
> This suggests that humans socially dominated Neanderthals when they came into contact. Why? Is it because it is assumed that the dominant specie would steal the women (who would spread these traces in the dominant specie)? Isn't it possible that the dominant specie would also just rape, but not steal the women? (which would presumably cause the opposite genetic "flow")
- jaredhallen 2y ago
  I gave this an upvote, because it seems like a plausible scenario and I had the same question. I have to say though, it feels a little uncomfortable upvoting a comment about rape.
Keysh 2y ago
Harris et al. 2023, “Diverse African genomes reveal selection on ancient modern human introgressions in Neanderthals” https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960982223013155 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09609... “… most Neanderthal homologous regions in sub-Saharan African populations originate from migration of AMH [anatomically modern human] populations from Africa to Eurasia ∼250 kya, and subsequent admixture with Neanderthals, resulting in ∼6% AMH ancestry in Neanderthals. These results indicate that there have been multiple migration events of AMHs out of Africa and that Neanderthal and AMH gene flow has been bi-directional.” This is, admittedly, research published after Slimak’s book came out, and referring to an earlier time period.
- lapcat 2y ago
  Yes, I think his research focuses on a more recent period, and one of the main points of the book is to refute theories about why Neanderthals became extinct, so the 250kya period wouldn't be directly relevant to that. It's interesting that according to https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/humans-and-neanderthals-mated-250000-years-ago-much-earlier-than-thought https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/humans-and-neanderth... "This group of humans died out".