4 ms·

I heard from some people that this works because the solder gets bad over time potentially losing contact somewhere. Melting and resolidifying it resolves that

I heard from some people that this works because the solder gets bad over time potentially losing contact somewhere. Melting and resolidifying it resolves that issue. Then I heard from somewhere else that it's actually not true. There's a very common (most common?) type of capacitor that very slowly loses capacitance over time. But heating it up and cooling it down resets it so it's like new. Either way, I really wonder how much e-waste out there is just due to old solder/capacitors that could have been easily repaired.

mschuster91 2y ago
> Either way, I really wonder how much e-waste out there is just due to old solder/capacitors that could have been easily repaired. Actually, both are true! The solder stuff ("Soldergate") was around the time when the EU RoHS directive came into force - around the late '00s IIRC. The most affected product was everything with a NVIDIA GPU [1] (including Apple, who then cut all ties with NVIDIA as a result), but AMD (or rather, back then ATI) was also hit as they manufactured the Xbox 360 GPU with its RRoD ("red ring of death") issue [2]. In all cases, the issue at the core was an untested combination of no-lead solder elements that didn't handle frequent high-amplitude heat/cool cycles all too well, and a common fix was indeed to bake the PCBs in an oven to achieve all solder balls getting equally hot, basically low-temperature DIY annealing. The capacitor issue cropped up around the same time - an engineer had stolen the electrolyte formulation from his prior employer, mis-copied it and eventually through his new team defecting (and stealing the broken formulation...) it spread around the industry [3]. All electrolytic caps age (particularly if used at the upper end of their rated temperature scale!), but the ones made with the broken formulation age muuuuuuch faster. Note that there is no fix for a dried-out elcap, the only fix is replacing it and in the case of an exploded one, cleaning the entire board of spilled electrolyte. The problem is in both cases, these issues are hard to troubleshoot without expert knowledge and tools, in-place measurement can be very tricky (say because a capacitor is in parallel with an IC or resistor), and even if you have both the knowledge and the tools, it can be a wild wild goose chase to repair a broken Thing as for 99.99999% of equipment (outside of cameras and some phone models where for whatever reason everyone and their dog leaks component-level repair guides?!) you will not find information regarding component values, small SMD parts have no distinguishable parts marking at all any more, and manufacturers keep adjusting PCBs between revisions (to keep up with compliance requirements, fixing hardware errata or just because a part becomes unavailable) without that being apparent to the customers. We desperately need laws specifying that all PCB design files have to be submitted to the government and that they be released to the general public after the manufacturer ceases support. [1] https://www.overclock.net/threads/inq-nvidia-gpu-defects-explained.380074/ https://www.overclock.net/threads/inq-nvidia-gpu-defects-exp... [2] https://de.ifixit.com/Device/Xbox_360 https://de.ifixit.com/Device/Xbox_360 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague
- CamperBob2 2y ago
  We desperately need laws specifying that all PCB design files have to be submitted to the government and that they be released to the general public after the manufacturer ceases support. Aaaaand that's my daily reminder to read to the end of a given post before reaching for the vote buttons.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    I'm happy to discuss my opinion especially after describing my reasoning, you just went for some completely unnecessary snark. To extend on my reasoning: it seems like the camera and phone industry is still perfectly thriving despite very precise diagrams right down to circuit designs and component specifications being accessible via nothing more than a Google search for "sony <model> service manual level 3". There is a healthy ecosystem of devices and manufacturers on one side, and officially licensed as well as unlicensed repair shops on the other side, and there are many resellers for original spare parts as well that allow both larger operators and adventurous tinkerers to repair their devices on their own if they want. Unfortunately, this cannot be said about a lot of other electronics branches where a lot of Things eventually become dead paper weights due to DRM, bespoke critical parts failing without spare part supply chains and/or information how things should work (say, test point voltages, signal patterns, ramp-up periods) or simply because the manufacturer vanishes off the face of the earth, forcing owners of such devices (assuming they still work after the manufacturer ceased paying server bills) to decide between doing what is right and discarding of stuff that poses a threat to other netizens or to keep their stuff running and have it hacked sooner than later. Since the market has clearly failed to provide products that are built to last, the e-waste amount is clearly unsustainable and the electronics markets of Shenzhen with the wizards there being able to do virtually everything one desires cannot be replicated elsewhere, I propose strict governmental regulation.

mschuster91 2y ago

> Either way, I really wonder how much e-waste out there is just due to old solder/capacitors that could have been easily repaired. Actually, both are true! The solder stuff ("Soldergate") was around the time when the EU RoHS directive came into force - around the late '00s IIRC. The most affected product was everything with a NVIDIA GPU [1] (including Apple, who then cut all ties with NVIDIA as a result), but AMD (or rather, back then ATI) was also hit as they manufactured the Xbox 360 GPU with its RRoD ("red ring of death") issue [2]. In all cases, the issue at the core was an untested combination of no-lead solder elements that didn't handle frequent high-amplitude heat/cool cycles all too well, and a common fix was indeed to bake the PCBs in an oven to achieve all solder balls getting equally hot, basically low-temperature DIY annealing. The capacitor issue cropped up around the same time - an engineer had stolen the electrolyte formulation from his prior employer, mis-copied it and eventually through his new team defecting (and stealing the broken formulation...) it spread around the industry [3]. All electrolytic caps age (particularly if used at the upper end of their rated temperature scale!), but the ones made with the broken formulation age muuuuuuch faster. Note that there is no fix for a dried-out elcap, the only fix is replacing it and in the case of an exploded one, cleaning the entire board of spilled electrolyte. The problem is in both cases, these issues are hard to troubleshoot without expert knowledge and tools, in-place measurement can be very tricky (say because a capacitor is in parallel with an IC or resistor), and even if you have both the knowledge and the tools, it can be a wild wild goose chase to repair a broken Thing as for 99.99999% of equipment (outside of cameras and some phone models where for whatever reason everyone and their dog leaks component-level repair guides?!) you will not find information regarding component values, small SMD parts have no distinguishable parts marking at all any more, and manufacturers keep adjusting PCBs between revisions (to keep up with compliance requirements, fixing hardware errata or just because a part becomes unavailable) without that being apparent to the customers. We desperately need laws specifying that all PCB design files have to be submitted to the government and that they be released to the general public after the manufacturer ceases support. [1] https://www.overclock.net/threads/inq-nvidia-gpu-defects-explained.380074/ https://www.overclock.net/threads/inq-nvidia-gpu-defects-exp... [2] https://de.ifixit.com/Device/Xbox_360 https://de.ifixit.com/Device/Xbox_360 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

CamperBob2 2y ago
We desperately need laws specifying that all PCB design files have to be submitted to the government and that they be released to the general public after the manufacturer ceases support. Aaaaand that's my daily reminder to read to the end of a given post before reaching for the vote buttons.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  I'm happy to discuss my opinion especially after describing my reasoning, you just went for some completely unnecessary snark. To extend on my reasoning: it seems like the camera and phone industry is still perfectly thriving despite very precise diagrams right down to circuit designs and component specifications being accessible via nothing more than a Google search for "sony <model> service manual level 3". There is a healthy ecosystem of devices and manufacturers on one side, and officially licensed as well as unlicensed repair shops on the other side, and there are many resellers for original spare parts as well that allow both larger operators and adventurous tinkerers to repair their devices on their own if they want. Unfortunately, this cannot be said about a lot of other electronics branches where a lot of Things eventually become dead paper weights due to DRM, bespoke critical parts failing without spare part supply chains and/or information how things should work (say, test point voltages, signal patterns, ramp-up periods) or simply because the manufacturer vanishes off the face of the earth, forcing owners of such devices (assuming they still work after the manufacturer ceased paying server bills) to decide between doing what is right and discarding of stuff that poses a threat to other netizens or to keep their stuff running and have it hacked sooner than later. Since the market has clearly failed to provide products that are built to last, the e-waste amount is clearly unsustainable and the electronics markets of Shenzhen with the wizards there being able to do virtually everything one desires cannot be replicated elsewhere, I propose strict governmental regulation.