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In my eyes, this incident raises the question about every Israeli software developer and hardware developer I work with. Could they be a part of another operat

In my eyes, this incident raises the question about every Israeli software developer and hardware developer I work with. Could they be a part of another operation, infiltrating products I work with and eventually harming the reputation of company? Possibly, yes.

erezsh 2y ago
If your client is Hezbollah, I would say your fear is warranted.
- tuyguntn 2y ago
  Who is the client of Android OS, pencil, smartphones? You don't need to build specifically for Hezbollah, to start worrying about your risk factors
- hnbad 2y ago
  Where do you think the line should be drawn? Arguably if your client is IDF your devices are more likely to exclusively end up in the hands of military personnel whereas if your client is "Hezbollah" (whatever legal entity acted on their behalf in this case) an attack would be (and has been) far more likely to injure, maim or kill civilians and non-militants, not just because of the higher likelihood of harming bystanders and family members. Would a supply chain attack like this against Toyota be justified because of the large market share in after-market "technicals" used by terrorist and insurgent groups?
- mardifoufs 2y ago
  Yeah, and since most civilians in Israel are part or were part of the IDF, then the comment you're replying to is right. And according to the same logic you're using, said Israelis are totally fair game for an enemy state or organization to target and kill. If killing suspected Hezbollah fighters outside of the battlefield in civilian areas is totally fine, because they could fight Israel, then most Israeli civilians are too according to that twisted logic. I'm sure you'd have said the same if a few thousand explosive devices went off all over Israel, and Hezbollah said that it was just them targeting IDF troops.
fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
As if israel is the only state actor operating inside companies. The list of state actors that partake in corporate espionage and more is quite long.
- tuyguntn 2y ago
  there is a difference between espionage and infiltration. corporate espionage yes, practiced by many states, to gain competitive advantage. infiltration, I don't know many examples, except Israel.
  - fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
    Snowden? Prism? Russian/Chinese hacks? Nothing rings a bell? Here's a fun story: https://www.theverge.com/2024/5/23/24163389/joseph-cox-dark-wire-fbi-phone-startup-anom-criminals-secure-messaging-decoder-interview https://www.theverge.com/2024/5/23/24163389/joseph-cox-dark-...
- hnbad 2y ago
  There is a difference between using infiltration to gain intel and engage in surveillance (although this still caused moral outrage when Snowden leaked details about US intelligence services infiltrating foreign companies in allied countries) and using supply chain attacks to turn electronic devices into remote detonated bombs at scale to carry out a terrorist attack. What's next? Car bombs?
  - fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
    > What's next? Car bombs? Pretty sure that's been done by almost everyone.
    - hnbad 2y ago
      If "almost everyone" is "Russia, Ukraine during an invasion, allegedly the Mossad, maybe the CIA and otherwise mostly terrorist groups and insurrectionists" then sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_bomb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_bomb Most countries don't actually have their intelligence services routinely carry out assassinations and when they do the point of having the intelligence service do it rather than the military is usually to keep a low profile.
hnbad 2y ago
This isn't entirely hypothetical. There was for example a US-German joint venture of the respectivel intelligence agencies that produced compromised encryption/security software. The primary market were of course hostile foreign countries but the US saw no problems also selling to its allies which the German agents balked at (because after all if they openly do this that means there's no reason to believe they wouldn't also do this to Germany). Granted, infiltrating a supply chain to boobytrap devices to prep them for a coordinated act of state terrorism is a different beast from merely compromising encryption and communication but a certain level of paranoia seems warranted.
clooless 2y ago
[flagged]
mhluongo 2y ago
Uh, shouldn't it raise the question about every developer you work with, period? Even if you just think Mossad does this (not the case), if they want to mess with you, it's pretty poor op/sec to declare their nationality first.
weatherlite 2y ago
Because it's very likely every Israeli you meet is in the Mossad right? Just like all Americans work in the CIA?

erezsh 2y ago

If your client is Hezbollah, I would say your fear is warranted.

tuyguntn 2y ago
Who is the client of Android OS, pencil, smartphones? You don't need to build specifically for Hezbollah, to start worrying about your risk factors
hnbad 2y ago
Where do you think the line should be drawn? Arguably if your client is IDF your devices are more likely to exclusively end up in the hands of military personnel whereas if your client is "Hezbollah" (whatever legal entity acted on their behalf in this case) an attack would be (and has been) far more likely to injure, maim or kill civilians and non-militants, not just because of the higher likelihood of harming bystanders and family members. Would a supply chain attack like this against Toyota be justified because of the large market share in after-market "technicals" used by terrorist and insurgent groups?
mardifoufs 2y ago
Yeah, and since most civilians in Israel are part or were part of the IDF, then the comment you're replying to is right. And according to the same logic you're using, said Israelis are totally fair game for an enemy state or organization to target and kill. If killing suspected Hezbollah fighters outside of the battlefield in civilian areas is totally fine, because they could fight Israel, then most Israeli civilians are too according to that twisted logic. I'm sure you'd have said the same if a few thousand explosive devices went off all over Israel, and Hezbollah said that it was just them targeting IDF troops.

fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago

As if israel is the only state actor operating inside companies. The list of state actors that partake in corporate espionage and more is quite long.

tuyguntn 2y ago
there is a difference between espionage and infiltration. corporate espionage yes, practiced by many states, to gain competitive advantage. infiltration, I don't know many examples, except Israel.
- fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
  Snowden? Prism? Russian/Chinese hacks? Nothing rings a bell? Here's a fun story: https://www.theverge.com/2024/5/23/24163389/joseph-cox-dark-wire-fbi-phone-startup-anom-criminals-secure-messaging-decoder-interview https://www.theverge.com/2024/5/23/24163389/joseph-cox-dark-...
hnbad 2y ago
There is a difference between using infiltration to gain intel and engage in surveillance (although this still caused moral outrage when Snowden leaked details about US intelligence services infiltrating foreign companies in allied countries) and using supply chain attacks to turn electronic devices into remote detonated bombs at scale to carry out a terrorist attack. What's next? Car bombs?
- fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
  > What's next? Car bombs? Pretty sure that's been done by almost everyone.
  - hnbad 2y ago
    If "almost everyone" is "Russia, Ukraine during an invasion, allegedly the Mossad, maybe the CIA and otherwise mostly terrorist groups and insurrectionists" then sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_bomb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_bomb Most countries don't actually have their intelligence services routinely carry out assassinations and when they do the point of having the intelligence service do it rather than the military is usually to keep a low profile.

hnbad 2y ago

This isn't entirely hypothetical. There was for example a US-German joint venture of the respectivel intelligence agencies that produced compromised encryption/security software. The primary market were of course hostile foreign countries but the US saw no problems also selling to its allies which the German agents balked at (because after all if they openly do this that means there's no reason to believe they wouldn't also do this to Germany). Granted, infiltrating a supply chain to boobytrap devices to prep them for a coordinated act of state terrorism is a different beast from merely compromising encryption and communication but a certain level of paranoia seems warranted.

clooless 2y ago

[flagged]

mhluongo 2y ago

Uh, shouldn't it raise the question about every developer you work with, period? Even if you just think Mossad does this (not the case), if they want to mess with you, it's pretty poor op/sec to declare their nationality first.

weatherlite 2y ago

Because it's very likely every Israeli you meet is in the Mossad right? Just like all Americans work in the CIA?