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> it wants to do everything and does none well I can't speak to the other points you made because this has always stopped me from investing in it. What I need

> it wants to do everything and does none well I can't speak to the other points you made because this has always stopped me from investing in it. What I need in my stack is a focused Google Docs alternative, but every time I've installed it (3-4 times at this point) I'm quickly overwhelmed by the quantity of stuff it includes and by how complicated actually setting up the Docs replacement was (at the time the recommendation was to install Collabora and link it up with Nextcloud, which I never could get working). What I did see out of the box was a slow and bloated web portal, a bad calendar, a bad video conferencing app, a file backup solution, and a terrifying app store filled with add-ons that may or may not be maintained. Oh, and now it looks like they have an AI assistant? I'm honestly relieved to see this here and know it's not just me. I ended up going with Seafile for file backups and have been very happy with it, though I'd still love to find a focused collaboration tool I can run.

klabb3 2y ago
> it wants to do everything and does none well On that topic, it’s amusing to see when the “are we a product or a platform?” confusion jumps from its native host (publicly listed tech corps) to FOSS projects – different species altogether. The idea of owning your own server just like any other device like laptops, smartphones and tablets, is just wonderful. But that means Linux! And Linux is absolutely infamous for poor application distribution (well technically the Linux distros). So now people make their own half-assed “app stores”, which is infinitely worse. We would need a platform spec so that application developers can publish, users can discover and deploy, and platform providers can implement against a shared spec. That would be such a major step away from the surveillance economy and towards data sovereignty.
- bzzzt 2y ago
  > We would need a platform spec so that application developers can publish, users can discover and deploy, and platform providers can implement against a shared spec. That's been tried with Linux Standard base, but it seems 'standardise on glibc 2.31 and Qt 3' is not a viable way to describe system dependencies. Such a spec also doesn't exist for Windows or macOS systems. If you target 'living' operating systems you need living applications that are updated to keep working. We're well past the point you can assume some 20 year old binary will work unless you're running it in an emulator.
  - bigstrat2003 2y ago
    Microsoft is so committed to backwards compatibility for Windows that you are very likely to be able to run 20 year old binaries without any heroics. They don't need any kind of platform spec, because they put in serious work to maintaining that kind of compatibility.
- wvh 2y ago
  Maybe I misunderstand what you're suggesting, but aren't containers pretty much that application platform? Or stuff like Helm, when you're talking about larger, more complex deployments? I imagine Nextcloud needs at least a database, web server and the ability to send emails, and possibly some form of backup and high availability if you really want to rely on it. There are a lot of non-trivial ways to skin that cat.
  - klabb3 2y ago
    > Maybe I misunderstand what you're suggesting, but aren't containers pretty much that application platform? That’s right. And for UI, web is the obvious choice. But it’s not an application platform alone. You need at the very least file systems and networking/routing over https and maybe lower level protocol support too, that apps can use/discover without having to have a phd in Linux configuration. But to be truly useful, you need a lot more stuff wrt identity & auth, server-to-server networking, service discovery, cross-app communication, etc. Something more like Dokku probably. > Or stuff like Helm, when you're talking about larger, more complex deployments? Well fortunately you don’t need to open the Pandora’s box of consensus problems for a personal node (again like any other device). Also too much Yaml to make it sane probably?
BrandoElFollito 2y ago
> What I need in my stack is a focused Google Docs alternative Try Etherpad (https://etherpad.org/ https://etherpad.org/) > I ended up going with Seafile for file backups and have been very happy with it I went through probably dozens of solutions and ended up with Syncthing for synchronization of data (it requires understanding how it works but once you do (usually an eureka kind of moment) this is a very powerful system. For me using synchronization software (Seafile, Syncthing, ...) to do backups is dangerous. Borg is a very good solution (or Restik, or Kopia)
- touggourt 2y ago
  >> What I need in my stack is a focused Google Docs alternative > Try Etherpad (https://etherpad.org/ https://etherpad.org/) He should better use OnlyOffice, Collabora or Cryptpad office suite. The Cryptpad server is the only one which is not a nightmare to install and setup.
  - BrandoElFollito 2y ago
    Etherpad took me a few minutes to install on docker. Not sure why you do not like it
    - touggourt 2y ago
      I like Etherpad very much, but it is very lite as a Google docs alternative. Collabora, Only Office or the Cryptpad suite are better, but from the 3, the cryptpad server is the easiest to install.
- dspillett 2y ago
  > For me using synchronization software (Seafile, Syncthing, ...) to do backups is dangerous. Yep. Just synchronisation on its own for backup is at best better than nothing, a first step. It fails to protect from at least three very common occurrences you need backups for: accidental deletion, incorrect update, or corruption - the broken data is quickly synced everywhere. Adding snapshots and regular integrity checks is essential.
- 2y ago
A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
<< I'm honestly relieved to see this here and know it's not just me. In a way, I have the same feeling. I really wanted it to work, but the install ( in my case via unraid ) broke multiple times after I started doing anything outside the basic functionality. Eventually, I gave up on it and moved to dedicated apps for each portion I wanted and I have not looked back. edit: syncthing for file sync wps-office for general doc work photoprism for pic library
righthand 2y ago
Honestly I realized I don’t need a web editor to change the documents, I just needed the documents on whatever device I was using. I set up syncthing to sync my Documents folder with a whitelist for specific directories and a $5 vps lets me get access to whatever documents I need. No need for a domain name and web ui when it’s all desktop apps all the way down. For collaborative editing LibreOffice Writer has a collaboration feature. Otherwise I’ll send a copy via message service of some kind (email, txt, chat, whatever) or download a copy to my Documents folder if someone sends me a google docs link or whatever.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Does LibreOffice now allow collaborating on one document at the same time? I can use local synced files for most things, but when I need to work with my wife on a document together I always have to fall back on Google.

klabb3 2y ago

> it wants to do everything and does none well On that topic, it’s amusing to see when the “are we a product or a platform?” confusion jumps from its native host (publicly listed tech corps) to FOSS projects – different species altogether. The idea of owning your own server just like any other device like laptops, smartphones and tablets, is just wonderful. But that means Linux! And Linux is absolutely infamous for poor application distribution (well technically the Linux distros). So now people make their own half-assed “app stores”, which is infinitely worse. We would need a platform spec so that application developers can publish, users can discover and deploy, and platform providers can implement against a shared spec. That would be such a major step away from the surveillance economy and towards data sovereignty.

bzzzt 2y ago
> We would need a platform spec so that application developers can publish, users can discover and deploy, and platform providers can implement against a shared spec. That's been tried with Linux Standard base, but it seems 'standardise on glibc 2.31 and Qt 3' is not a viable way to describe system dependencies. Such a spec also doesn't exist for Windows or macOS systems. If you target 'living' operating systems you need living applications that are updated to keep working. We're well past the point you can assume some 20 year old binary will work unless you're running it in an emulator.
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  Microsoft is so committed to backwards compatibility for Windows that you are very likely to be able to run 20 year old binaries without any heroics. They don't need any kind of platform spec, because they put in serious work to maintaining that kind of compatibility.
wvh 2y ago
Maybe I misunderstand what you're suggesting, but aren't containers pretty much that application platform? Or stuff like Helm, when you're talking about larger, more complex deployments? I imagine Nextcloud needs at least a database, web server and the ability to send emails, and possibly some form of backup and high availability if you really want to rely on it. There are a lot of non-trivial ways to skin that cat.
- klabb3 2y ago
  > Maybe I misunderstand what you're suggesting, but aren't containers pretty much that application platform? That’s right. And for UI, web is the obvious choice. But it’s not an application platform alone. You need at the very least file systems and networking/routing over https and maybe lower level protocol support too, that apps can use/discover without having to have a phd in Linux configuration. But to be truly useful, you need a lot more stuff wrt identity & auth, server-to-server networking, service discovery, cross-app communication, etc. Something more like Dokku probably. > Or stuff like Helm, when you're talking about larger, more complex deployments? Well fortunately you don’t need to open the Pandora’s box of consensus problems for a personal node (again like any other device). Also too much Yaml to make it sane probably?

BrandoElFollito 2y ago

> What I need in my stack is a focused Google Docs alternative Try Etherpad (https://etherpad.org/ https://etherpad.org/) > I ended up going with Seafile for file backups and have been very happy with it I went through probably dozens of solutions and ended up with Syncthing for synchronization of data (it requires understanding how it works but once you do (usually an eureka kind of moment) this is a very powerful system. For me using synchronization software (Seafile, Syncthing, ...) to do backups is dangerous. Borg is a very good solution (or Restik, or Kopia)

touggourt 2y ago
>> What I need in my stack is a focused Google Docs alternative > Try Etherpad (https://etherpad.org/ https://etherpad.org/) He should better use OnlyOffice, Collabora or Cryptpad office suite. The Cryptpad server is the only one which is not a nightmare to install and setup.
- BrandoElFollito 2y ago
  Etherpad took me a few minutes to install on docker. Not sure why you do not like it
  - touggourt 2y ago
    I like Etherpad very much, but it is very lite as a Google docs alternative. Collabora, Only Office or the Cryptpad suite are better, but from the 3, the cryptpad server is the easiest to install.
dspillett 2y ago
> For me using synchronization software (Seafile, Syncthing, ...) to do backups is dangerous. Yep. Just synchronisation on its own for backup is at best better than nothing, a first step. It fails to protect from at least three very common occurrences you need backups for: accidental deletion, incorrect update, or corruption - the broken data is quickly synced everywhere. Adding snapshots and regular integrity checks is essential.
2y ago

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago

<< I'm honestly relieved to see this here and know it's not just me. In a way, I have the same feeling. I really wanted it to work, but the install ( in my case via unraid ) broke multiple times after I started doing anything outside the basic functionality. Eventually, I gave up on it and moved to dedicated apps for each portion I wanted and I have not looked back. edit: syncthing for file sync wps-office for general doc work photoprism for pic library

righthand 2y ago

Honestly I realized I don’t need a web editor to change the documents, I just needed the documents on whatever device I was using. I set up syncthing to sync my Documents folder with a whitelist for specific directories and a $5 vps lets me get access to whatever documents I need. No need for a domain name and web ui when it’s all desktop apps all the way down. For collaborative editing LibreOffice Writer has a collaboration feature. Otherwise I’ll send a copy via message service of some kind (email, txt, chat, whatever) or download a copy to my Documents folder if someone sends me a google docs link or whatever.

lolinder 2y ago
Does LibreOffice now allow collaborating on one document at the same time? I can use local synced files for most things, but when I need to work with my wife on a document together I always have to fall back on Google.