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I don't doubt that a big chunk of Ukraine wanted to join up with the West. After all, we are more prosperous. The question is to what extent that is possible wh

I don't doubt that a big chunk of Ukraine wanted to join up with the West. After all, we are more prosperous. The question is to what extent that is possible when one considers geopolitical constraints. I think what some people are saying is, Ukrainians would probably not have been for the current situation if they had known in advance. I don't think they would have been for war with Russia, to break away from them. I don't think that's what maidan was about. I think what some people are also saying is that the US knew this would lead to war and pushed Ukraine into it, anyway. And that is also the reason why France and Germany were more reluctant on the matter, because this is not good for us here in Europe. I personally don't know what to think. I think the US framing of the situation is childish: "the Ukrainians wanted to leave and Russia doesn't want them to". As if they wouldn't do exactly the same thing, where they in that situation. Seems to me that you cannot ignore the geopolitics. At the same time, a people have sovereignty over their land and a right to do with it what they please, but that is only an ideal and not true in practice. Well, there is nobody enforcing such ideals so you need to go to war... Even way back before Ukraine, people question why Russia has been kept as an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union. Because they don't submit to the US hegemony? But they could be allies. India doesn't submit either, for that matter, but they are semi-allies. But not Russia. Because? We wouldn't be in the current situation if Russia wasn't antagonized so hard way back then. I think it is very hard to parse objectively what is happening because there is so much propaganda and heated opinions on the topic. And not everyone has the same objectives, and people can always contort themselves to blame everything on those they despise.

wiseowise 2y ago
> I personally don't know what to think. I think the US framing of the situation is childish: "the Ukrainians wanted to leave and Russia doesn't want them to". They’re framing nothing. This is literally what happened. > As if they wouldn't do exactly the same thing, where they in that situation. That’s irrelevant to the current situation. > Even way back before Ukraine, people question why Russia has been kept as an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union. Because they don't submit to the US hegemony? But they could be allies. India doesn't submit either, for that matter, but they are semi-allies. But not Russia. Because? We wouldn't be in the current situation if Russia wasn't antagonized so hard way back then. Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Syria. Constant meddling in business of other post-Soviet republics. Wow, poor Russia being antagonized by evil West! > I think it is very hard to parse objectively what is happening because there is so much propaganda and heated opinions on the topic. Ah, old “hard to know REAL truth”. Straight out of Russia’s metodichka.
mopsi 2y ago
> Even way back before Ukraine, people question why Russia has been kept as an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union. Because they don't submit to the US hegemony? But they could be allies. India doesn't submit either, for that matter, but they are semi-allies. But not Russia. Because? We wouldn't be in the current situation if Russia wasn't antagonized so hard way back then. Eastern Europe is celebrating 30-year-anniversary of departure of Russian troops. In some countries, it happened in 1993, in others, in 1994. They left behind lots of graffiti with messages such as "the masters will be back". Not only regular soldiers, but diplomats and high officials have maintained the same attitude throughout decades since then. Countries in Eastern Europe are still referred to as "near abroad", distinct from "real" foreign countries, as if they were rebelling colonies. Instead of seeking reconciliation like Germany after the WWII, Russia has done nothing but denied its crimes in Eastern Europe and mocked victims. By trying to sabotage integration with international organizations, Russia has done everything they could to ruin the future too and keep those countries internationally isolated. Instead of respecting sovereignty, they have relentlessly meddled with internal affairs, supported extremists, fueled social division and instigated violent protests. In Ukraine, they went a step further and started the largest war in Europe since Hitler's invasion of Poland. Hundreds of thousands are dead and material damages are in hundreds of billions only because Ukraine wanted closer trade relations with the European Union. Who's the antagonizer here?

wiseowise 2y ago

> I personally don't know what to think. I think the US framing of the situation is childish: "the Ukrainians wanted to leave and Russia doesn't want them to". They’re framing nothing. This is literally what happened. > As if they wouldn't do exactly the same thing, where they in that situation. That’s irrelevant to the current situation. > Even way back before Ukraine, people question why Russia has been kept as an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union. Because they don't submit to the US hegemony? But they could be allies. India doesn't submit either, for that matter, but they are semi-allies. But not Russia. Because? We wouldn't be in the current situation if Russia wasn't antagonized so hard way back then. Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Syria. Constant meddling in business of other post-Soviet republics. Wow, poor Russia being antagonized by evil West! > I think it is very hard to parse objectively what is happening because there is so much propaganda and heated opinions on the topic. Ah, old “hard to know REAL truth”. Straight out of Russia’s metodichka.

mopsi 2y ago

> Even way back before Ukraine, people question why Russia has been kept as an enemy after the fall of the Soviet Union. Because they don't submit to the US hegemony? But they could be allies. India doesn't submit either, for that matter, but they are semi-allies. But not Russia. Because? We wouldn't be in the current situation if Russia wasn't antagonized so hard way back then. Eastern Europe is celebrating 30-year-anniversary of departure of Russian troops. In some countries, it happened in 1993, in others, in 1994. They left behind lots of graffiti with messages such as "the masters will be back". Not only regular soldiers, but diplomats and high officials have maintained the same attitude throughout decades since then. Countries in Eastern Europe are still referred to as "near abroad", distinct from "real" foreign countries, as if they were rebelling colonies. Instead of seeking reconciliation like Germany after the WWII, Russia has done nothing but denied its crimes in Eastern Europe and mocked victims. By trying to sabotage integration with international organizations, Russia has done everything they could to ruin the future too and keep those countries internationally isolated. Instead of respecting sovereignty, they have relentlessly meddled with internal affairs, supported extremists, fueled social division and instigated violent protests. In Ukraine, they went a step further and started the largest war in Europe since Hitler's invasion of Poland. Hundreds of thousands are dead and material damages are in hundreds of billions only because Ukraine wanted closer trade relations with the European Union. Who's the antagonizer here?