3 ms·

Honestly I do not favor this paradigm, no matter if NextCloud, O360, SandStorm and alike: the point is that we should teach the desktop paradigm, syncing data a

by kkfx 2y ago

Honestly I do not favor this paradigm, no matter if NextCloud, O360, SandStorm and alike: the point is that we should teach the desktop paradigm, syncing data around, not using desktops as monsters, hyper-expensive thin clients or more properly dumb terminals of a remote "mainframe". It's easy today because current IT evolution is totally skewed, derailed for commercial reasons, but that's untenable. Who think it's normal being even unable to access already made documents only because "the remote service or the network is down"?

Propelloni 2y ago
I agree -- to a degree. But the "cloud first" paradigm broke MS' chokehold on the desktop and arguably enabled Linux and Mac to become viable alternatives in that space. Today I can use any major Linux dsitribution and just don't have to worry about interoperability in bread and butter use cases. Even MSO365 works fine. Considering the continued shrieks of pain coming from the graphics design people this is not the case. Those people are still tied to desktop applications and look what freedom of choice they have. Virtually none.
ezst 2y ago
> Honestly I do not favor this paradigm I think you are not alone, but I also wouldn't be surprised if this frog is boiled so slow that our opinion eventually becomes irrelevant: today's teenagers are *less* proficient on a keyboard than their elders, because they no longer "type" but "tap" instead. When the average exposure to computing is reduced to dumbed-down "consumption-only" devices running iOS/Android, and that goes for a generation or more, the perception of us would likely be that of old folks yelling at clouds.
- touggourt 2y ago
  The new paradigm is smartphones firts, not only for childrens.
- kkfx 2y ago
  I definitely follow you but noting a thing: the more we "advance" the more we implement again very old solutions, back for the pioneering Xerox PARC era, some random examples: - most UIs actually have switched from the "commercial menu" model to a "search&narrow" one, now are kind of very rudimentary CLIs; - from "commercial widget-based GUIs" back to some kind of DocUIs, today they are web, back than PostScript and alike, but the idea is essentially the same; - NotebookUIs (like Jupyter, IDEs like R-Studio where some "GUI elements exists mixed with text) are more and more common and well, tomorrow someone will rediscover Emacs buffers ideas... So, while most computer users are consumer only, those who can't consume only a little step at a time, following a kind-of Greenspun's tenth rule reimplement partially and with many bugs and limits old ideas. I do not know where we could go in 10+ years, but... Even with all the bug-ridden modern overhead, we actually rediscover classic solutions, at a certain point classic desktop computing will came back forcibly IMVHO...What I do not know it's how much time and injuries we will suffer in between...
  - ezst 2y ago
    > we actually rediscover classic solutions, at a certain point classic desktop computing will came back forcibly You make it sound like evolution being circular is matter of fact/inevitable (and, to be fair, tech history proves you right in more than one occasions!), though I wouldn't discount the sheer power exerted of the tech monopolists of today: we don't have dumbed down pocket computers out of technical necessity, or because users "demand" that, or because new trends and implementation paradigms emerged: the dumbing down is purely a marketing strategy meant to extract more profit from users (by controlling the user experience through an "app store", where every app is not just "sold" but "installed"). This time around, I fear that we would have to break those monopolies, or have governments intervene and compel them to open-up their stores and OSes to get back to a fair and fertile ground for innovation.
    - kkfx 2y ago
      Well, it's not "automagical" and sure, of course, but tend to happen regularly, of course not exactly as foresee by the pioneers, not without struggles, victims, sufferance in the meantime, but still happen in the end. Giants now push ML stuff exactly because they foresee a certain evolution, as they push RTO for equal reasons, as anyone else they try to protect their profits and augment them. But as they do so all others who know try to do the same for themselves and "the masses" here and there even in ignorance "feel" smell rodents, and could change mindset once a new way appear in front of them. We have had proprietary connectors for mobile recharging, now through regulation we have had microUSB and now USB-C, similarly GNU/Linux desktop popularity climb without any laws mandating it, they are small various steps who will likely led to a certain evolution. Monopolies and oligopolies will fall, others will form, in the end in all human history these things have happened and we have kept evolving even if going through long dark ages here and there. The sad part is that we have just a single life so, depending on the point in history we born we suffer more or less and potentially for the entire life...
bo1024 2y ago
Nextcloud can do local first, they call it desktop sync. Like Dropbox. https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/latest/user_manual/en/files/desktop_mobile_sync.html https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/latest/user_manual/en/file...

by kkfx 2y ago

Propelloni 2y ago

I agree -- to a degree. But the "cloud first" paradigm broke MS' chokehold on the desktop and arguably enabled Linux and Mac to become viable alternatives in that space. Today I can use any major Linux dsitribution and just don't have to worry about interoperability in bread and butter use cases. Even MSO365 works fine. Considering the continued shrieks of pain coming from the graphics design people this is not the case. Those people are still tied to desktop applications and look what freedom of choice they have. Virtually none.

ezst 2y ago

> Honestly I do not favor this paradigm I think you are not alone, but I also wouldn't be surprised if this frog is boiled so slow that our opinion eventually becomes irrelevant: today's teenagers are *less* proficient on a keyboard than their elders, because they no longer "type" but "tap" instead. When the average exposure to computing is reduced to dumbed-down "consumption-only" devices running iOS/Android, and that goes for a generation or more, the perception of us would likely be that of old folks yelling at clouds.

touggourt 2y ago
The new paradigm is smartphones firts, not only for childrens.
kkfx 2y ago
I definitely follow you but noting a thing: the more we "advance" the more we implement again very old solutions, back for the pioneering Xerox PARC era, some random examples: - most UIs actually have switched from the "commercial menu" model to a "search&narrow" one, now are kind of very rudimentary CLIs; - from "commercial widget-based GUIs" back to some kind of DocUIs, today they are web, back than PostScript and alike, but the idea is essentially the same; - NotebookUIs (like Jupyter, IDEs like R-Studio where some "GUI elements exists mixed with text) are more and more common and well, tomorrow someone will rediscover Emacs buffers ideas... So, while most computer users are consumer only, those who can't consume only a little step at a time, following a kind-of Greenspun's tenth rule reimplement partially and with many bugs and limits old ideas. I do not know where we could go in 10+ years, but... Even with all the bug-ridden modern overhead, we actually rediscover classic solutions, at a certain point classic desktop computing will came back forcibly IMVHO...What I do not know it's how much time and injuries we will suffer in between...
- ezst 2y ago
  > we actually rediscover classic solutions, at a certain point classic desktop computing will came back forcibly You make it sound like evolution being circular is matter of fact/inevitable (and, to be fair, tech history proves you right in more than one occasions!), though I wouldn't discount the sheer power exerted of the tech monopolists of today: we don't have dumbed down pocket computers out of technical necessity, or because users "demand" that, or because new trends and implementation paradigms emerged: the dumbing down is purely a marketing strategy meant to extract more profit from users (by controlling the user experience through an "app store", where every app is not just "sold" but "installed"). This time around, I fear that we would have to break those monopolies, or have governments intervene and compel them to open-up their stores and OSes to get back to a fair and fertile ground for innovation.
  - kkfx 2y ago
    Well, it's not "automagical" and sure, of course, but tend to happen regularly, of course not exactly as foresee by the pioneers, not without struggles, victims, sufferance in the meantime, but still happen in the end. Giants now push ML stuff exactly because they foresee a certain evolution, as they push RTO for equal reasons, as anyone else they try to protect their profits and augment them. But as they do so all others who know try to do the same for themselves and "the masses" here and there even in ignorance "feel" smell rodents, and could change mindset once a new way appear in front of them. We have had proprietary connectors for mobile recharging, now through regulation we have had microUSB and now USB-C, similarly GNU/Linux desktop popularity climb without any laws mandating it, they are small various steps who will likely led to a certain evolution. Monopolies and oligopolies will fall, others will form, in the end in all human history these things have happened and we have kept evolving even if going through long dark ages here and there. The sad part is that we have just a single life so, depending on the point in history we born we suffer more or less and potentially for the entire life...

bo1024 2y ago

Nextcloud can do local first, they call it desktop sync. Like Dropbox. https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/latest/user_manual/en/files/desktop_mobile_sync.html https://docs.nextcloud.com/server/latest/user_manual/en/file...